Meat Treatments: Fish Sauce and "Warm Aging"

So here's something I'd love to see the CS kitchen run some tests on. There's a lot of chatter in the Facebook "Cook With Joule" group where people take meat - typically beef - and marinade/cook it in fish sauce. Alternatively, they might use "fish sauce salt," such as that made by Red Boat, to do a dry brine. In any case, you're adding salt and protein-breakdown byproducts to the surface of the meat. This is supposed to emulate the effects of dry aging (or more intense wet aging.... or something). While that may be tasty, I don't think that any sort of textural change can be attributed to the fish sauce apart from that contributed by salt. The flavor is improved, sure. But is it "simulated aging"? It seems more like you're combining a brine with a marinade; the salt penetrates while the free glutamic acid and other flavor particles mostly hang out near the surface. And while adding tasty umami bits to the outside of meat will make it tastier (and can give it a whiff of funk) it does not really resemble the effects of extended dry or wet aging. I have also heard allegations that fish sauce somehow increases enzymatic activity. I have yet to see anything that backs up this allegation.

The Fish Sauce Technique is quite often paired with an ultra-low-temp "warm aging" SV cook step -- or steps. This technique cooks meat in the danger zone for several hours, sometimes at differing temperatures, to optimize the activity of particular enzymes that can tenderize meat (39C/103F for calpains and 49C/120F for cathepsins). After time at this low temp, the meat is either seared immediately for service or the temp of the water bath is raised high enough to kill off pathogens. Hopefully.

This technique is discussed in a few sentences in Modernist Cuisine, but some people took it as gospel and as the One True Path Toward A Better Steak. To me, it mostly seems like a good way to increase your risk of foodborne illness. From what I understand having glanced through the beef science literature, these enzymes have largely denatured and have minimal activity by the time they reach the end consumer. You can't boost the enzymatic activity of enzymes that aren't there anymore. Hence the reason for my skepticism.

Anybody know the deal? @Chris_Young_80640 @Grant_Lee_Crilly_63791

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tshewman

I agree very much under continued study. As you outlined, there are a number of moving targets. The product/steak enzymes under discussion are essentially modulators and need other things (temperature being one, calcium another) and interplay among may systems. If we try to separate things (e.g. things that are more reliant on temperature ranges-Calpain) we find there is limited confirmation (though it has been confirmed for improving tenderness), there is some evidence that the various calpains (3 if I recall??) some have influence on tenderness (CAPN3-effects on sarcomere length and if I recall it was around the molecule titin where things were active). Some on flavor (CAPN1?) and not so much on tenderness (again temperature etc dependent). As for the fish sauce, it too comes with it's share of bacteria and enzymes which may contribute to the surface breakdown (and the funk) but I haven't found anything relative to the internal tenderness of say a roast (or really thick steak). Thanks for starting this Brandon! Look forward to hearing more!!

Manfred__101170

Dry aging, a modernized term stands in context to beef kept “on the hook” over a week and was historical, not so fare back, the way meat was sold by the local butcher to the public. Request for immediate availability by raising demand made wet drying (vacuumed meat) to the product of choice for the beef industry.

With modernist cousin this industrial terms made it in the restaurant and home kitchen. Ever since anything behind it is on an experimental stage. Dogmatize a certain procedure to “age” meat as the only pure way of preparing is rater religious touched than scientifically founded.

Fish sauce…, a plain marinade or brine to enhance the Unami what else could it possibly be?!

In any case it only can work the surface of the product depending on the product thickness, with a penetration value of max 0.5 -1.0 cm. Lactic acid remains as the main factor to brake down proteins and add to the tenderness of the product whether this is dry aging (Parma ham in a wider understanding) or even more in the process of wet aging (plain vacuumed product).

I even would go as far to classifying wet drying, by using a brine (fish sauce), closer to fermentation than meat aging in the term as understand in general. Is it possible to exhilarate the fermentation? Yes, but only if you add enzymes as used in the food industry like Ficin, Papain or Bromelain (cysteine proteases). Pineapple juice can serve the same purpose as commercial enzymes produced and used are from Pineapple.

But these Enzymes require to be injected into the core of the product, a process which opens it wide up to contamination to unwanted microorganism.

Fish sauce can contain a high number of Enzymes as in the industrialized fermenting production the exhilaration of fermentation can be steered by added commercial enzymes. This is the only reason why fish sauce could be a “player” in it. High number of enzymes, low PH value and adding Unami to the flavor.

The fish sauce too, as pineapple juice, would need to be injected to "start" any additional catalytic reaction in the core of the meat. Temperature also is of essence.

The speed of catalytic reaction of enzymes raise by the factor of 2-3 by per + 10°C/50°F.

Temperature only and exclusively is stimulating the catalytic reaction, no fish sauce or any amount of exiting or added enzymes.

Sorry German only, but you certainly will find the same in English around the net.

http://www.chemgapedia.de/vsengine/vlu/vsc/de/ch/8/bc/vlu/biokatalyse_enzyme/enzyme.vlu/Page/vsc/de/ch/8/bc/biokatalyse/enzym_temp.vscml.html

“Warm aging” in my understanding is tricky business and requires a top kitchen hygiene and first-class product handling from growing, to slaughtering to delivery, to ensure a germ-free (core) product.

Surface contamination is not t prevent as 970 – 2.500 bacteria per square centimeter are present at any given time.

At temperatures of 39C/103F and 49C/120F we are dealing with mesophilic and thermophilic, amongst this temperature range also with staphylococcus and salmonellae.

1. Mesophilic 25°C – 42°C / 77°F – 107,6°F

2. Thermophilic 40°C – 67°C / 104°F - 152,6°F

Since this range of temperature (2) most sous vide cooking is handled, product selection and high hygienic standards are a basic for this procedure. “Warm aging” already is in progress during sous vide cooking, it only depends on the duration of cooking time and the point you set the sequence to rise the temperature during this specific process. Salmonellae dies after 60 min. at 55°C/ 155°F and after 30 min at 60°C/ 140°C. Searing is a simple must to eliminate all possible surfaced contamination.

I rather recognize it as a “play in the kitchen” to get out “the most possible you can get out” without any addition to texture and flavor in the day by day sous vide cooking. I move it close to cyro frying, it is possible, it is the very edge, but do you practice it on daily base?

So, you can inject enzymes, from wherever you extract them, and play with temperature to edge out the cooking time and tenderness for your beef.

Comes to aging of meat, I prefer dry aging as the enzymes and lactic acid works on a slower process at 4°C and the loss of liquid is a process of caution and patient.