Thoughts about Douglas Baldwin and his charts

So people tend to quote this guy like he's Jim Cramer from Mad Money or something and I would love to hear some feedback about his work on sous vide times and temps. From what I understand he's a mathematician and not a chef and came up with his tables by calculations that are above my pay grade. That being said, it seems like in a sort of cover your ass move, he advocates pasteurization left and right and while that's certainly something that is useful, doesn't seem necessary for every single thing that is cooked sous vide.

The biggest gripe and sticking point for me is when someone asks me for advice about cooking times and methods and when I suggest something (usually based upon MC or something I have learned here) they jump to his charts which always seem to vary greatly and I really don't have a good counter argument for them.

So what's up with those charts? Useful? Super conservative/safe like the sous vide toolbox/dash app? How to talk to others sensibly about pasteurization and when/where it's necessary or advisable?

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DiggingDogFarm_65362

Not all of his "tables" and "times" are pasteurization centered....especially in his book.

While I don't agree with all that he promotes, I generally think that he's contributed a lot of useful information.

com-chefsteps

I agree with @DiggingDogFarm, but then I'm also a huge fan of the Sous Vide Dash app.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

I think he contributes semi useful info.

Mostly in the starting range and make sure you lower it to a temp you need.

Then cook and serve and cut about 2-4 hours.

Chris_Young_80640

I've asked Douglas to chime in, because I think he would have a useful perspective. But I do know Doug and am very aware of how extensively he tested his tables, and also the work he put into reviewing the literature with regards to pasteurization. I think highly of the quality of his work, and believe it to be more accurate in most regards than what we published in MC. Predicting cooking times at various temperatures, and simplifying the date to fit a two-dimensional table is *extremely* error-prone, except in a fairly narrow range where geometric considerations and heat transfer rates tend to swamp the errors.

As for pasteurization, keep in mind that it is not always necessary—and certainly not often desirable—to pasteurize your food. I do know that Doug understands this, even if that's not always clear from his cooking tables.

DiggingDogFarm_65362

"I think highly of the quality of his work...."

Yep...especially when viewed as a whole.....his web guide: A Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking....his book: Sous Vide for the Home Cook...his 16 page article in International Journal of Gastronomy and Food Science: Sous Vide Cooking: A Review.....his videos....his dozens ans dozens of posts on eGullet...the Australian regulatory guide largely based on his work....I've read (or viewed) almost all of his readily available stuff.....that's a heck of a lot of work and a lot of good information.

~Martin

DiggingDogFarm_65362

oh...and except for his book...all the information is FREE!!! That's a heck of a deal!

Brendan_Lee_56950

I think for me, and maybe I wasn't clear enough about it, is the pasteurization piece, that's the part that I always have thrown/quoted back to me from Baldwin's work and I have always said that it's not always necessary or desirable but people don't seem to believe that and I think it's not really that clear from his work unless you dive very deep into it.

It would be cool to hear from him though, thanks @chris.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

Thanks @Chris!

I realized going back that his charts is pretty much the only thing I use, so I kinda have to agree with @Martin.

I think they were the first I found on steak, eggs and so on and as soon as I realized I could

serve things without having to wait for pasteurisation if I wasn't chilling it I've never looked back.

I've especially liked the range and time based recommendations for various proteins, they

are a great indicator on how to do things.

Jack_Mayer_85396

Thanks @Chris! When I first started playing around with Sous Vide cooking, his website and charts and the threads on eGullet were the only resources available. I still remember the initial post I saw on an eGullet thread (circa 2000?), "anyone have any times and temps for sous vide cooking?" The signatory was one Nathan M. I agree with @Brendan and @Johan, once I realized that everything didn't need to be cooked to pasteurization, it was liberating.

com-chefsteps

I'd be really excited to have Douglas Baldwin participate on ChefSteps - it'd give me a chance to thank him for contributing so much to SV enthusiasts.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

@Ted - Yes, I actually think he is one of those really worthy of a shoutout just for being him.

Getting some interaction here would be magnificent.

Jack_Mayer_85396

@Ted, you are absolutely right! I'd love the chance to thank Dr. Baldwin; and I bet he could make some fantastic contributions here ...

DouglasBaldwin_31850

Thank you for your feedback.

If you're serving good ingredients to immuno-competent people, then pasteurization often isn't necessary. Good raw meat, fish, and poultry typically have 10 pathogens (of the Salmonella species) per gram, and the estimated illness does for a healthy person is more than a thousand pathogens per gram. But the story is very different for the immuno-compromised: even a few infective pathogens of the Salmonella species or the pathogenic strains of E. coli in the whole meal can cause them to become ill. As an advocate of universal design, I wanted to make sure everyone could benefit from sous vide cooking -- even the 15 to 20% of American's who are immuno-compromised. But implying that everyone needs to pasteurize everything wasn't my intention.

When I wrote my guide six years ago, sous vide was not as established as it is now. People want to feel safe when trying new things; so I hit food safety hard in my web guide, and pretty hard in my cookbook. I'd hoped that Figure 4 in my review article clearly summarized how different the requirements are for immuno-competent and -compromised people. If I ever get around to revising my web guide again, I'll try and make this clearer.

Brendan_Lee_56950

Thanks for sharing and replying Douglas. I hope my initial post didn't come off as negative, I was primarily concerned with how often people feel as though pasteurization is absolutely necessary and when I query them about why they usually are quoting your work.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

I actually didn't know the percentage of immuno-competent people was that high nor how few pathogens were needed.

Manfred_18311

@DouglasBaldwin

My thoughts

all along, high quality products reduce the possibility of illness. Your guide translated

in German was the first useable table and guideline in the SV I came along. Still

today I see strong question marks in people’s eyes and headshaking of

unwillingness when I speak of cooking temperatures from 40° C -60° C. which is

the area of mesophilics and thermophiles, so deeply anchored is the mark of 75° C concerning food safety.

And that is

for good ,as SV is cooking on the edge of the possible, not only high quality

products are fundamental to it, but concerning 20.000 bacteria’s on one’s hand at

any giving time, kitchen hygiene is essential to prevent the most common reason

of food sickness: contamination.

If in daub,

keep it strict.

tshewman

This is a bit of a complicated topic as it is actually likely the % of immuno-compromised individuals is likely higher than posted. This does NOT mean we will have people dropping at our dinner parties and such, just that their GI systems are not up to par due to other less than ideal choices. I would respectfully submit to simply consider these things when putting together your meal plans. The devil is a bit in the details as pasteurization we are told means it's "safe" yet some of the enzymes and nutritional components (that we would benefit from) are killed at pasteurization (hence things like the raw milk debate). It's just not a simple formula and I commend Doug, Chefsteps and all who contribute with such information to try to make it easier for us that don't have their knowledge.

Jack_Mayer_85396

Douglas, thank you for replying here. And a huge thank you for your generosity when sharing your early, trailblazing work! I hope your schedule will allow you to participate regularly here. Cheers!

ren_74229

@DouglasBaldwin makes a great point about the context in which his work came about. I remember those earlier days of sous-vide...and the first thought that came into many people's minds was "botulism", and in a broader context..."is it safe?" So it made/makes perfect sense to address that side of things.

At home, we're only bound by our own actions and what actually harms us. In the restaurant world, there will always be a long way to go before the rules are actually in line with the practical reality.

DouglasBaldwin_31850

Thank you for the warm replies.

Brendan: I didn't take offense. I understood precisely what you were getting at, and I appreciate the constructive criticism.

Manfred: I'm glad you agree about ingredient quality and sanitation. Indeed, the safety of fin-fish and shellfish depends almost entirely on ingredient quality and sanitation, since pasteurization for Listeria doesn't do anything to reduce the risk from viruses (like the norovirus).

Todd: The estimate of 15% to 20% came from Lund and O'Brien (2011). Their abstract follows:

In developed countries, such as the United Kingdom and the United States, between 15% and 20% of the population show greater susceptibility than the general population to foodborne disease. This proportion includes people with primary immunodeficiency, patients treated with radiation or with immunosuppressive drugs for cancer and diseases of the immune system, those with acquired immune-deficiency syndrome and diabetics, people suffering from liver or kidney disease or with excessive iron in the blood, pregnant women, infants, and the elderly. Malnutrition and use of antacids, particularly proton-pump inhibitors, also increase susceptibility. We review the occurrence of infection by foodborne pathogens in these groups of people and measures to prevent infection. The nature and use of low microbial diets to reduce the risk of foodborne disease in immunocompromised patients are very variable. Diets for vulnerable people in care should exclude higher-risk foods, and vulnerable people in the community should receive clear advice about food safety, in particular avoidance of higher-risk foods and substitution of safer, nutritious foods.

Jack: Thank you. I'll try and stop by this forum occasionally, but teaching and math research keeps me pretty busy.

Ren: Thank you for remembering and sharing. It amazes me how much sous vide cooking (and modernist cuisine) has come in the last six years.

Chris_Young_80640

@DouglasBaldwin — Thanks for taking the time to contribute. Always excited to have someone with your knowledge contribute.

michaelnatkin

We've trapped @DouglasBaldwin in a box and @Chris isn't letting him out.