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Sous Vide vs. Braising and flavor development

mike.minasian

Hey CS community,

I have been a big fan of braising for a long time, and have made some great dishes this way before:

Pomegranate braised lamb shoulder (from Zahav in Philly)

Braised "Carnitas" with Juniper

Momofuku "Bo Ssam"

And most importantly, short ribs:

Food porn aside, my quesiton is this:

Being new to sous vide cooking, I understand the benefits to reliability, texture precision, and convenience of Sous vide. What I don't know about yet (having not done a long cook yet) is flavor development. Is it possible to develop these kinds of flavors using sous vide? If so, do you bag using flavorful ingredients or do you add flavor after?

When I did the short ribs, I braised them a long time and got a great texture, but I tried them by themselves after that, and I really don't like that plain super "beefy" flavor (for lack of a better term). It wasn't until I reduced the braising liquid and glazed the short ribs that they became incredible. With the other cooks though, it does seem that the braising liquid imparts a lot of flavor, although all require a final touch up period.

I did a steak on Saturday night sous vide and made a great sauce using the meat drippings from the bag...is this people's go to strategy? Aside from having more juice left in the meat, are there other *flavor* benefits in particular to sous vide vs. braising? Should I just keep braising as I always have been for certain dishes (like the carnitas)?

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Brendan_Lee_56950

I only do carnitas in the pressure cooker now, for the convenience and end product it can't be beat.

com-chefsteps

Since you specifically asked about flavor and have obviously considered other variables, I'mma try to ignore significant texture and doneness advantages entirely.
Less juice gets squeezed from your meat in SV, so you are denied the opportunity to concentrate flavor in the sauce by reducing it as much (you'll still have some juice to reduce). I think the wins (juicy, rare braised meat) generally outweigh that loss in SV, but there are some applications where I'd go the traditional braise route (such as cooking for sweety, who prefers the texture of traditionally braised meat).

Pre-searing _may_ get you a little more flavor development when used in SV than in traditional braising, but I'd be surprised if I could taste much difference. Still, if you're looking for an excuse to do a side-by-side experiment, search for Chris Young's recent comment about pre-searing your steak for SV, which slowly-but-surely nudges along the Maillard reactions kickstarted by the pre-sear. I assume this happens in traditional braises, too, though.

For me, a traditional braise's flavor comes from the sauce. There's a little flavor left in the meat, but not a ton; the gelatin-y defatted/reduced/seasoned sauce is where the magic happens. (reasonable people may disagree with this.) When I cook the meat SV, there's still some meaty flavor in the meat. It may be more diffuse than braising sauce, which may suggest a longer-lasting, but less varied, taste experience per bite. It can be interesting when individual bites change flavor as I chew, so maybe that's a point for traditional (as the sauce gets swallowed faster than the meat), although I also like when the end of the bite still has some flavor, which would be a point for SV.

This all might make less difference in a fricassee, but if I talk about unbrowned braises I won't have the discipline not to drift into a spiel on the awesome power of SV temperature control, which is not flavor so I'll leave it.

If you like prep work or don't mind the effort, you could probably pave a no-compromises road by 1. SV-ing your main braise-meat; 2. pressure-cooking some ground meat to get jus; 3. combine juices, de-fat and reduce; 4. stuff in gnashing maw.

I'd be your new best friend if you did a side-by-side comparison and posted with pictures!

mike.minasian

@Brendan Lee - I've considered doing that a few times, but haven't brought myself to it yet. Couldn't decide if saving an hour or two was worth the risk to it not turning out how i'd hope. Now there is something to be said for the potential of *better* flavor in the PC given the pressure, but I have heard some people say that pressure cooked meat ends up seeming "boiled" which is obviously not what I'm going for. I'll have to consider doing it soon though.

@Ted - Thanks for your long reply. I did a presear on my steak this weekend (my first ever SV cook) and was happy with the results. Like ecstatic. So I shouldn't be *that* worried about the results for long cooks in SV, but I still have concerns as I have yet to do it. Not being classically trained, my skills with making sauces pretty much amounts to: reduce. I like your 4 step method, however for something like carnitas, the sauce (braising liquid) has many components:

6 cloves garlic, peeled and thinly-sliced
2 oranges, juiced, plus the zest of 1/2
2 limes, juiced and zested
several cups chicken stock
1 teaspoon ground cayenne pepper
1 tablespoon ground ancho chile
1 tablespoon ground chipotle pepper
2 teaspoons cumin
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1 teaspoon freshly-ground black pepper
herb sachet with 8 sprigs Mexican oregano, 6 sprigs thyme, 2 sticks cinnamon, and 2 bay leaves, wrapped in a cheese cloth and tied shut with cooking twine
1 cup Grand Marnier

1/2 c crushed juniper berries

With your suggested method, my thought would be: 1) Presear, cook pork shoulder (in cubes) SV (what temp?). Shred. Render ground beef in PC. Combine bag juices, GB fat in pan and add aromatics from list. Reduce, reduce, reduce. Add shredded meat to sauce. Broil (I usually do this step), and serve. My only issue with this is: after all of this, would I be better off just braising? (you're welcome for the recipe for my best dish!)

Alternatively, for a short rib, I used Thomas Keller's braising recipe from Ad Hoc at Home (http://momofukufor2.com/2010/03/ad-hoc-braised-beef-short-ribs-recipe/) For this use case I buy your method a lot more, because texture is a big deal.

Lastly, I am planning to try CS Pastrami next, so maybe that will be all of the answer that I need!

I am tempted on the side-by-side of the carnitas though...

seijoed

Cook the pork at 62C or somesuch. No ground beef needed.

If you want a good carnitas recipe - use the Kung Pao recipe here.

Also - there is no master recipe to a common dish.

If you search some, there are quite a few Carnitas renditions on the "What's for Dinner" thread.

mike.minasian

Thanks for the temperature input. I'm certainly not saying there aren't multiple recipes, obviously mine isn't authentic at all, it just happens to be my favorite, so I was trying to guage if it was worth it to try doing it SV...

seijoed

Try it PC -

mike.minasian

Will do.

Is it just more convenient, or does it taste better too?

seijoed

It is mostly more convenient, the texture sous vide is awesome, I tend to use the broiler to

finish either way, you get those neat crispy edges that way.

Brandon_Byrd_40557

If you cook SV at higher temps, you'll still be able to approximate the texture of a traditional braise. The real advantage of SV though is the ability to braise at lower temps, breaking down the collagen over time without overcooking the meat. If you're going to do a braise with added liquid, you should hyper-reduce anything that you add into the bag because it's going to be diluted from the juice from the meat, and it won't have a chance to evaporate. That's if you're wanting to serve the sauce straight from the bag (after straining it). I usually like to add a crust to SV braised items by either throwing them on the grill or into a screaming hot oven (or sometimes a preheated dutch oven inside a screaming hot oven).

Pre-searing is a good way to help flavors develop in the bag, as is including some some browned scraps/trim along with the primary cut being braised.

tshewman

Michael Minasian - For long cooks SV, I personally prefer to use an accompanying liquid. A bordelaise style is my personal favorite and it has been wonderful every time. I would definitely agree with Brandon in reducing the amount, however, if prepared, you can reduce the jus ceated a fair bit and retain some of the flavor. The first time I tried it, it was too much and it was a nice (relatively thin) sauce. So, I kept the ribs warm and used the sauce and made rissoto with it. Which was a real nice surprise. Oddly, I haven't done it again. Mostly because I now use much less sauce to braise/cook in.

Jeff_169832

I sous vide tough meats a lot, love the results, but what I miss from braising is the flavor development that comes from the onions, carrots, celery, wine or whatever else is used in in a braise combined with fat and dissolved solids. I've yet to find a way to duplicate that with sous vide, if there is something I'm missing please help.

Jeff

Alex_36374

what's your got recipe?