ChefSteps is finally finishing our sous vide class!

It has been 18 months since we made our first attempt at a sous vide class and I sincerely apologize for not finishing it guys! We got so excited with everything that it could be that we became bogged down, this happened to us at Modernist Cuisine but we had more time and money so...

Without further ado,

Since Karen's recent post got so much traction(we are launching the pressure cooker class in November) I figured I'd mention that we are relaunching our sous vide class in October, yes that is 4 or so weeks from now.

We are actually going to be pushing some free "101"(content in the form of a class) that you will be able to use to better explain what sous vide is to your friends and family. Hopefully this will make it easier to convince them that sous vide cooking is the way to go and they too should try it out.

But for the "201" class, what do you want to see?

Our outline that we have now covers a new and informative way to better understand meat and vegetable science, cooking temperatures and times, common misconceptions about plastics and in depth how to's from what to do before it goes in the bag, when its cooking and all the things you can do to sear and finish a high level sous vide dish for your friends and family.

Keep in mind that we are considering a pro version("301") as well at some point. The pro version would cover all the high level food safety, how to write a HACCAP for your food establishment, theory and vacuum chamber usage.

Searing, holiday meals, tricks for cheap cuts, food safety, giant time temp chart... Tell me what you really want to learn about sous vide cooking?!

Grant

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Johan_Edstrom_5586

I think more and more of us really are interested in the 201 and 301 - even if we only dream about doing fine dining.

In the 201 I'd like to see sous vide with things like -

How to do hottie doggies, so yes forcemeats, spiral ham, more proteins, much more proteins.

High and short vs low and slow, chilling and cook to chill, benefit of pressing.

Maybe more history of?

Activa RM, new applications.

Using sous vide as just a step of / in normal processes.

Love temp charts, the cheap chuck trick you shared a long time ago has become a staple.

(Maybe this isn't so much sous vide as it is understanding how proteins break down).

coryhansen78

Nice!

+1 on holiday meals, giant chart, vac chamber usage and theory.

I like Johan's suggestions about cook chill (and I'd throw in retherming), more proteins and integrating sous vide as a step in other processes too!

I'd add infusing liquids, sous vide grains (rice, steel cut oats, etc.), and getting the amount of seasoning/garlic (etc.) in the bag right!

grant

Thanks guys, keep it coming folks.

Jack_Mayer_85396

I'm pretty comfortable with SV cooking at this point. Maybe some more work on pre-sear, SV cook, quick chill, freeze and then re-therm ... Also would really, really like more info on how to get more from a chamber sealer. I'm fine on sealing and compression, but would love to learn more on sealing sauces, custards, etc ... Thanks Grant, Chris, Michael, Lorraine, Edward, et al for this amazing community!

tshewman

Seasoning, are stews (similar to poached chicken) possible with red meats etc etc. Benefits of tough cuts higher temps vs lower (advantages limitations-I think this might be what Johan is asking and if so, me too). sausages, dogs, hams.

Fruits....what else can we do with them SV?

grant

We are putting a lot of effort into the meat and vegetable science so everyone can have a better idea on how to cook something new without second guessing. For example, if you were to give me a rear quarter of a wild water buffalo, and I wanted the texture steak like, I would cook it at 60c/24hrs. I have never cooked water buffalo but I know that would make steak texture for that cut in that animal because I understand the morphology.

We are really going to dig into searing and browning for sure. I see a lot of cgc(what we call internally, "community generated content") that could benefit from some searing pre and post.

I also want to shed light on benefits of serving hot food to new sous vide eaters. Just because it was cooked sous vide does not mean it should be or needs to be served at a lower surface temp than traditional cooked foods

Pressing and post treatments are a shoe-in as it totally affects how people will think of their first SV meal.

I really want you guys to be able to cook food for people and they will never know it was cooked sous vide but will simply think its the best versions of x they have ever had.

Three star ninja style cooking.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

Maximum morphology. That's a t-shirt.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

Oh, on the CGC - I think we are at that point, I know I am, criticism - please.

We cook at home, we go to reastaurants, most of them I go to, I think they suck at

seasoning unless it is fine dining or a mom/pop hole in the wall. (Foodtrucks can be pretty awesome.)

But, I'd love to see observations from the professional angle, I really would!

Matt_67991

One thing that would be really good to include in the searing section including advice on using different burners. Some of us live in small apartments with electric ring burners.

theultravisitor

This may already be included in the info you have planned for meat and vegetable science, but I would like to see some instruction on using sous vide to transform the cheapest cuts of meat into something that would impress dinner party guests.

Nicky_J_17040

Very excited about this. This is the only site/community out there that is staying so far ahead with modern techniques and theories. I'm glad to hear you say that it doesn't have to be obvious that the food was cooked sous vide, rather, just the best x i've ever tasted. That's really what it comes down to.

I'm loving the idea of a "giant temp chart", in-depth look at pre/post searing, and most of all...how to write a HACCAP plan. I also recently picked up a VacMAster svp-20 for dirt cheap. A real dinosaur of a chamber. But it really sucks....and seals! So I would be interested in learning more about the chambers.

Thanks CS

anthony_34093

Love the Holiday meals idea.

Seth_Ratner_91225

I wouldn't mind seeing some second-order uses where sous vide isn't revolutionary, but simply better. The MC@H creme brulee was a huge revelation for me. Not terribly different than a bain marie, but a million times more predictable, removing all the apprehension from custard making.

grant

That is definitely on the list.

grant

That is tricky, there are so many types of burners. The one thing that is true and consistent is the type of pan relative to the heat source/distribution of heat. If you had a wobbly electric coil, would be best to use a heavier cast iron that will distribute the heat throughout the pan...

When you have open flame, you can get away with a thinner pan that heats up quickly and recovers quickly then you add cold produce to it.

tarrosion

As Matt said, I'd like some more info about searing. I live in an urban apartment, no hood. Smoke is a problem, even if the smoke alarm doesn't go off, it's still a bunch of smoke stuck in the apartment. Deep frying seems to work well, but it seems like at high temps for a quick sear the oil breaks down quickly, can't be reused, and I don't like using say a quart of oil to sear one or two steaks. Seems a waste.

tarrosion

The thing I'm most interested in is an explanation of why one reads contradictory advice on the Internet.

For example, I've read that to get herb flavor, put some fat in the bag since flavor compounds are more fat soluble than water soluble. I've also read (from Kenji @ Serious Eats) that if you want herb flavor, don't put fat in the bag; then you get flavorful bag juice and bland bag contents. Which is true? When?

Or oil packing: the ChefSteps level up sous vide presentation page says to put oil in the bag, but does that apply to all meats? Vegetables? I haven't seen steak packed with oil much at all, including in the ChefSteps sous vide steak recipe.

I've read that one can "warm age" meats to great effect in a bath of ~45C, but I've also read that this is a great way to promote bacterial growth and get seriously sick. I want tastier meat, not dead guests.

Etc, etc.

To reiterate: I'm not just looking for ChefSteps to come down on one side or the other of these, though there is some value there since I trust CS a lot. Rather, I'm hoping for an explanation of why there's contradictory advice, whether there's some merit to both sides, if it depends on what you're trying to do, if it stems from a common misconception, etc.

Brendan_Lee_56950

HACCP plan would be awesome. I would love to see a 301 course that could outline the best ways to incorporate SV into a professional workflow. So examples of how it would work in a pre-filled fine dining setting, something that is more standard like a gastropub that does 40-60 covers a night, and then how you could incorporate it into a catering or food truck setup.

I'd also like to see the workflow mapped out from the moment a product arrives from the supplier to the time it is served on the plate. So how it's stored, cleaned, inspected, portioned, pre-treated, how it's cooked SV (why it was cooked the way it was) how it is used during service and then a final dish using that product.

As for a 201 course, I'd love to see some guidelines to help us experiment with various times/temps. Maybe an outline as to how we would go about choosing basic time/temp combinations for various protein and veg types so that we can apply a scientific approach to it rather than rolling the dice (or worse relying on "joe SV's" cooking blog info). I'd like to also see some discussion about the various information out there about chilling meat (i.e. the bruno method vs just straight ice bathing).

Lastly, some talk about how to combine SV with other cooking techniques. We do this already with post-treatments like searing and frying but are there instances where SV can be combined with other cooking methods to create even more interesting flavors or textures. I think too often we only rely on SV to tenderize but are there other things that we could be using it for that are counter-intuitive.

dr.kiuchi

Agreed - it really depends on practice and knowing your workspace to produce ideal results. IR thermometers can be used to get surface temp. Also logging time vs. temp on different pans may help in that endeavor. Also, while I love my cast iron, I have read that it doesn't necessarily heat evenly. Again though, with a grain of salt* it depends on the heat source, and how it is applied.

dr.kiuchi

I'm really all about this as well. Thanks for the suggestions! Another one from Serious Eats would be the pre vs. post sear, that it appears Grant has addressed. Another thought would be a section on addressing liquids for those who do not have access to chamber vacs.

lachlan_14664

This has been mentioned, but as a student with not very much money it would be cool to see some everyday recipes techniques that don't require premium first grade salmon, beef etc, to be amazing and will be great mid week meals.

I am also really interested in fermentation and enzymatic activity and harnessing this to our advantage; for example: yoghurts?, cheeses?, wine?, beer?, bread? etc.

The comprehensive temp chart sounds like the stuff dreams are made of haha.

Definitely hope that the courses are heavy on the science and whys/whats happening as we cook.

So excited!!

mike.minasian

HACCP is REALLY high on my list...about to start writing one soon! Let's shortcut straight to 301

Also, restaurant workflow of product. For instance, what is a safe chain for the food to follow from delivery, to cooking, to holding during service, to serving, to convincing the health department that that chain is all safe!

On a more fun note, what about covering the technique they use at CUT where they sous vide bagless, directly in oil?

tshewman

Perhaps Sous vide grains? I would presume a toasting of some rices may be necessary prior, but.....since the stir a little liquid in at a time hsa sort of been debunked, maybe......? The hands off would make it attractive.

grant

I can answer some of those now:

Some flavors are more or less soluble in fat, alcohol and or water so there is no real exact answer that covers them all. Things like rosemary have oil and water soluble compounds just like coffee. You get very different flavors from all the possible solutions. Coffee in water tastes like... coffee in butter/oil taste more sweet, in alcohol tastes more...you get it.

Oil in the bag is really for presentation purposes. If you are going to cook a steak and then sear afterward the oil you put in initially is sort of wasted if its not flavored. For fish, you are asking for trouble if you don’t add oil to the bag and for things vacuumed this is more important than ziploc items.

As for aging meats, I would encourage people tp experiment with already existing aromas and flavors to help promote "aged" flavors. I add white miso, blue cheese, parmesan rind puree, white soy, etc., to get a funky meaty flavor without wasting weeks or meat on health concerns. Yes, you can age meat better at controlled temperatures and humidities but is that what your guests really want?

grant

Pre and post sear:

For steaks and chops or anything I serve hot, perfectly cooked and caramelized, I sear both before and after...always..unless I am very hot deep frying. Then I just sear post.

For fish and lamb, I never pre sear. Because lamb fat oxidizes quickly and fish can just be damaged easily.

So for me it is not about vs./either or but what do I get with each step and when do I want one or both.

SteveM_20803

I don't know if this fits in but using the method for things like chocolate, sauces and anything else that would benefit from being held at a specific temp for extended periods of time. I even use it as a bath to keep my whipping siphons warm for the dessert end of a meal.

ttpoker

301: HACCAP!!!!!!!!!!! Please aim to have this become the defining content on the subject, content that can easily be handed to a health department representative to help educate them on the safety of Sous Vide cooking to help address the safety hysteria. If you could provide a license to share the HACCAP related content with government officials, that would be awesome - and ground breaking. Paid content for end users, free content for government to help promote the use of Sous Vide in a typical restaurant setting. This could become the tipping point for the industry, I am rooting for CS to step up to the plate a knock it out of the park!

Other advanced topics I would like to see :

1) Content that counters the common assumption that a vacuum chamber is required. For the vast majority of my cooking I have found that an open bag is more than adequate, and this will of course help make health departments around the world happy because of the elimination of an anaerobic environment

2) Content that discusses the use of sous vide in a practical restaurant environment using 2 or 3 baths set to different temperatures. Guide the reader over a real-world application of a make believe menu of lets say 10 dishes, and how the baths would be used during prep and service. Of course pull the dishes from the existing CS archives, my idea is to cover the management of the cooking process when you don't have a wall of immersion circulators like you guys have at the CS offices ;-)

Looking forward to this!

ttpoker

Yes! Or techniques like The French Laundry's lobster tails which used to be cooked sous vide in a bath of butter - sans bag. When TLF was doing this, they used a Polyscience Sous Vide Professional Classic series with the cage which is easily maintainable and cleaned for this type of preparation, but I would assume the same technique could be achieved in a Sous Vide Supreme or by placing the butter bath within a bag and using a standard bath instead.

PS: I am fairly sure TFL has eliminated this method recently.

Mike_Minh_Truong_54120

The 301 course series sounds appetizing. I'd love to further understand the business aspect of cooking. Have I ever dreamed of owning a food cart? Yes, yes! Please guide me from A to Z.

For the 201 course series, how about fine dining?

Thanks, Grant.

Matthew_Snyder_68770

I don't know if you play video games, but I read that in the voice of the nanosuit from the Crysis series. And that's a good thing.

ParkerCook_66639

I can't express how exciting this is! I ecco everything that has already been posted. Seasoning before/after has always been something I haven't been able to get down as well as pre/post searing. I'd LOVE to see as many vegetable recipes as possible. We're having our first kid in January and I'm planning on making her food with the circulator and our blender. Then a random thought; maybe potential uses that only work if you have two or more circulators? I don't know if that's even relevant but it was worth the thought. I'm all about the holiday meals idea and then thought of recipes specifically tailor for overnight cookery; I've tried to nail sous vide steel-cut oats but have yet to find a sweet spot.

Thanks for all the hard work guys!

Brendan_Lee_56950

I don't think there are going to be any good solutions for you since your limitations are physical. You could try altering your method slightly and cooking a a slightly lower temp and frying longer at a more reasonable temp to avoid the oil breaking down.

ethanunick

hell ya everything he said!! I'm all about the professional resources from you guys

T__2156

This is fantastically exciting, and my personal sense is that CS is "nailing it" more and more with what I, personally, want.

My top wish, which has been alluded to by others but I'm gonna try to say it specifically, is recommendations in recipes (or even better, a general guideline) about wrangling hold-points.

For example, in the (outstanding) CS burger patty, I suspect I could pre-sear those patties a day ahead, then chill, then SV as guests arrive to my party. This would help mitigate the problems of fashionably late guests, while still minimizing my kitchen time. I'm sure that cooking from 40°F instead of immediately post-sear means a different cooking time (probably 1-2 minutes? I'm extrapolating from Sous Vide Dash's heat curves). But how do I know?

Other bits were covered in CS' excellent "Level up: Sous Vide Presentation" video. I had always known that my SV food didn't look like Thomas Keller's, but I had no idea what to search to find the difference. That video solved a ton of problems I didn't have the first guess about.

ERROL_JOHNSON_35531

HACCP plan sounds boring, but to really to push sous vide into mainstream it is needed. Though the culinary community is starting to embrace sous vide as a practical and creative way of cooking, the rest feel tension of safety.

ERROL_JOHNSON_35531

Grant I just want to pat you guys on the back for even considering a 301 class. I am excited about your dedication of Sous Vide cooking. I agree with everything everyone wants in the classes. I love the idea of a super chart of cooking times. I was wondering if I could ask for a sous vide cooking time reference section in that wonderful app you have. If it could be broken down into categories like meats, sauces, vegetables, etc.

Brendan_Lee_56950

it may be boring but you have to have one to operate legally, it's not even a matter of pushing it mainstream, it's just to meet basic health dept regulations.

ERROL_JOHNSON_35531

Brendan, I hope you didn't take my comment negative, I am totally agree with you. I thought that the following statement backed that up. If you think my comment is negative I will edit it. In Miami and TN the industry gets nervous because of the HACCP planning of Sous Vide, so small establishments and caterers stay away from it. As far as mainstream, anything that becomes the "norm" people are more excepting to it and won't turn away from it. Again, Brendan I apologize if any offense was made to you. I stand behind your first statement 100%! Peace and happy cooking!

Chris_Cook_15681

If you're doing a 301/Pro level class, I'd love to see a chapter on integrating a CVAP into the workflow.

Nicky_J_17040

I know this has been touched on MANY times, but I still don't feel like it has been addressed as good as I can understand! Working in professional kitchens, I really want to integrate SV applications for service.....mainly picking-up previously SV proteins. I am aware of how long it takes to bring a cold piece of protein back to the proper serving temp, but was hoping for a fool-proof method for pre-cooking all (most) proteins to just below their desired temp, chilling, and re-heating for service. In a perfect world, I then sear/grill the protein and it is then served at the desired temp

Im not sure I want to set-up a bath on the line to hold proteins to be un-bagged, dried, and seared. I can't guess exact pars for the nights service, therefore having extra or not enough.

Maybe this has to be broken down item by item, or maybe this is just not the way it is done.

Thanks for hearing me out. Any input is readily accepted!

haydenschultz

Your current sous vide videos were extremely informative, and covered temperature/time variables. But I'm also struggling with how to package foods for sous vide. For example, I want to cook a chuck roast. Do I use a rub? Cook with a fat? Cook with a braising liquid? Do I brine it first? Any reason to use nitrate? Lots of new variables. And I suspect some of them affect the time I'd want to cook, also.

Other packaging issues have occurred to me. I get that raw garlic won't work well with most meats because the temp isn't going to cook the garlic as roasting does. But what about garlic butter? And the issue of what aromatics are fat soluble vs water soluble. Aaah! My brain hurts.

Byron_Wilson_86895

I really need the 301 class!!! I can't find anyone to approve a HACCP plan for ROP products. First place we just simply get away with it, but believe you me severe sanitation is required and it is a pain, all the way to sterilizing the bags and turning the top of the bags inside out so that we don't cross contaminate... sweet!

Byron_Wilson_86895

I'm with you Brendan, Health inspectors see any ROP or anything to create them in your kitchen & you get a warning with points taken away... but getting a HACCP plan approved is a total pain. so we use ziplocks in the mean time, or for bigger stuff like our recronstructed shoulder, we vacuum seal those over night with no worries of an inspector, but again, we have to immediately ice bath & remove it from the bags... so yes HACCP plan!!! on another note though, my last inspector didn't say anything about my sous vide half chickens, I do a tomato, lemon vinaigrette based in bag brine at 170 deg with ziplock bags, and he just looked at the temp and then walked on to the next thing! so what is legal and what is illegal in a restaurant? so many questions!

Larry_Barry_63657

This is exciting. I came across your YouTube video for sous vide cooking one day and within a month I had an SVS in my kitchen (this was prior to the Anova and Sansaire days).

I would love to see more non-meat applications for sous vide cooking, such as cocktails, desserts, and vegetables.

grant

This is really item specific. Cooking them in advance won't help you if your idea is to reheat via grilling. You will not reheat it any faster than it would take to cook from raw and the likely hood that you overcook it on the grill is high.

Best to grill for flavor and look, cook sv, chill reheat in sv and or flash on the grill. Sounds like a lot more steps but you will have complete control over the cooking time and temp. I dont know of a way that you can get away from baths on your line.

aaron.c.schroeder

I'm late to this conversation, but maybe I can get a reply from Grant – if not a whole section of the new course.

I've had a lot of trouble with seasoning and brining for sous vide cooking. When I season or brine and then freeze the product in the vacuum bag (which will later be dropped into the SV bath) I often end up with dry-textured meat and a lot of juice in the bag. This was partially covered on Cooking Issues a few years ago, but there are a lot of unanswered questions that a sous vide course might include, especially one marketing how easily this can be incorporated into home cooking.

I've gathered from a few resources that this has to do with a curing effect produced by allowing the protein to be seasoned for a long period of time, even in the freezer. But is that correct, or is it true only of meat that you season, cook, and then chill to retherm later? Moreover, if it is true, then pre-brining a protein like prior to a really long cook could be very problematic, given both how long the brine lasts as well as how long the cook lasts.

Anyway, I know that a lot people have posted about the 'dry-texture-with-sous-vide-proteins' problem before. What I would like to see is a more systematic account of what this problem really is, what causes it, and how it can be avoided for different types of products.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

I think if you read the posts here that the general advice is - Don't.

Salt pulls out the moisture, alcohol can give funky flavors, butters and dairy same.

Sous vide isn't crock pot cooking, it isn't braising, it isn't a lot of things.

If you start looking at the recipes things happen at different stages from other types of cooking and some things aren't directly translatable.

aaron.c.schroeder

Hi Johan, thanks for the reply.

When you say, "don't", am I correct in understanding that you mean "don't brine/season before freezing"? My impression is that there is a curing effect more or less as soon as you add salt to a given protein, and the longer the protein is salted, the more cured it becomes. Therefore, brining and freezing before cooking can lead to a significant degree of curing, while brining and then cooking leads to a more palatable degree of curing.

The general rule, which I think is what you're saying, is simply: unless you're aiming for a more cured texture for your meat, don't salt at all before freezing. Brine and otherwise season only when you're ready to cook a given protein.

More to point of this thread: I think this would be something interesting to cover in more detail in a sous vide cooking class.

Caleb_107088

I would love to learn more about immersion circulated poultry. Specifically understanding (like the short rib videos) the relationship between time and temperature. For example, for thighs, the only two suggestions seem to be 150 for 1.5 hours or 180 for 8 hours, but I feel that there must be a middle ground. Also, I would love to know how to build a flavorful "braise style" sauce quickly after SV thighs to a braised texture (180 for 8 hours). This is a great website and you guys are doing incredible work. Thank you!

Rich_McDonough_67546

It would be nice to see some more vegetarian options for main courses. I get stuck catering for vegetarians past the starter... Also, some more info and ideas on using the bag juices. I've had some weird experiences trying to turn them into sauces to go with the protein...

Nicky_J_17040

@Grant

Is there any need/desire to do a 2-step sous vide process with certain proteins? In other words, do you ever cook something, say, 24 hrs at one temp and then raise the temp for a few more hours?

Is this just totally unnecessary and contradicting the whole sous vide process?

THanks