Botulism worry if I sous vide the whole shoulder?

On the pork recipe they recommend Sous Vide the whole shoulder at 140F.

It probably takes more then 4 hours for the whole shoulder to reach 140F. Then when I quick chill it, it probably takes more then 4 hours to reach a safe temperature of 38F.

Don't I have to worry about Botulism since the meat has been between 38F and 120F for more then 8 hours?

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Johan_Edstrom_5586

That is a long and complicated answer.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1878450X11000035

Andy_T_127441

I read it, but couldn't find how long it's ok for meat to be in the danger zone (40F-120F) to prevent Botulinum spores from growing. According to my Sous Vide dash, it probably takes more then 12 hours for the core to reach 140F in a 4 inch Shoulder. Then when I chill it in an ice bath it would take another 12 hours to reach a safe temp of 38F! I thought meat shouldn't be between 40F and 120F for more then 6 hours?

Johan_Edstrom_5586

It is pasteurized long before that and when you chill, you want to chill in an ice bath, not in room temp. The botulism is a logarithmic scale (if I merember correctly) - so you'll not have to worry about it, leaving cooked stuff out warm, yes that is a hazard.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

What is interesting is the time to pasteurization, hot holding will not grow additional pathogens, it is in that article, might be a little convoluted.

Once the temperature of the food exceeds about 52.3 °C/126.1 °F, then all the known food pathogens stop growing and begin to die. Many recommend that the core of the food reach 54.4 °C/130 °F within 6 h to keep C. perfringens to less then 10 generations (or less than 2 h 10 min between 35 °C and 52 °C as per Willardsen et al., 1977), but this is not a critical control point: while C. perfringens does produce toxins, it only produces them while sporulating (and so is not a concern when heating) and the toxin is easily destroyed by heating (since it is destroyed in only 10 min at 60 °C/140 °F); see, for instance, Jay (2000, Chapter 24). So, it is only the vegetative form of C. perfringens that is a hazard when heating and they are easily reduced to safe level when pasteurizing for Salmonella, Listeria or E. coli. Therefore, heating to 54.4 °C/130 °F within 6 h is only a critical control point if the food is not then being pasteurized and the growth of other pathogens is usually a greater concern. However, FDA (2011)recommends a maximum time of 2 h above 21 °C/70 °F to control the germination, growth, and toxin formation by C. botulinum type A and proteolytic types B and F; since these species of C. botulinum have a maximum temperature of 48 °C/118.4 °F, this gives the same recommendation that the core of the food reach 54.4 °C/130 °F within 6 h—this is a critical control point since these toxins are not destroyed when pasteurizing for active or vegetative pathogens.

Andy_T_127441

According to my Sous Vide Dash, a 4 inches thick shoulder does NOT pasteurize OR reach 130F within 6 hours. The Sous Vide Dash says "Danger: did not pasteurize to core in 6 hours" How come you said "it is pasteurized long before that"?

If I chill in an ice bath, it will take more then 12 hours for the core to cool to 38F.

You just said "leaving cooked stuff out warm, yes that is a hazard." What is "warm"? and for how long leaving it "warm" is considered a hazard?

I'm not a scientist or anything, but I just want to make sure I'm OK to sous vide the whole pork shoulder if it's 4 inches. Some are thicker then 4 inches.

douglas_bd

Damn....look at Johan dropping the science CY style!