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Pâte Brisée: 4 Questions/Ideas

Saad_94717 · 2016-04-08T15:27:16+00:00

A few questions about preparing Pâte Brisée: Instead of using cubed butter, wouldn't it be preferable to use frozen grated butter instead? It would limit the working of the dough and lead to an even shorter pastry. How far can one push the butter:flour ratio either way, and what will the consequences be? I was thinking of…

Saad_94717

A few questions about preparing Pâte Brisée:

Instead of using cubed butter, wouldn't it be preferable to use frozen grated butter instead? It would limit the working of the dough and lead to an even shorter pastry.
How far can one push the butter:flour ratio either way, and what will the consequences be?
I was thinking of substituting some of the flour and butter (about 10-25%) with brown butter powder prepared using tapioca starch and Beurre noisette to add a more complex and nutty flavour to the crust (especially for sweet applications). What do people think about this idea? Has anyone tried it? Besides, the addition of the brown butter powder will improve the "melt-in-mouth" quality of the pastry as the tapioca starch will dissolve on contact with the warm tongue.
Once I have prepared the dough and rested it, instead of rolling it out, wouldn't it be better if I grated the (frozen) dough and then pressed it into the tart pan to the desired thickness and shape. This will reduce waste and also work the dough less, thereby keeping it very short.

Let me know what you guys think.

Thank you!

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Amos_Schorr_168815

1. I'd go for something in the middle. And that's because when making a nice flaky pie crust, you want some nice chunks of butter that haven't really dissolved into the dough. When you use grated butter, even though it's frozen, it tends to kind of melt into the dough, and that results in a less flaky product. It's still great, but it won't give you the best pie crust you've ever had in your life. I use small cubes of frozen butter.

2. You don't want to push it all that much. You need a good ratio, because it's the ratio of butter to flour that gives you the flakiness. Too much butter and it's just oily and soggy. Too much flour and it just won't hold up. The main thing I think you want to push is to use as little ice water as you possibly can. If your technique is good and you've prepared the butter properly, you can get away with just a few drops.

3. Something I've done in the past is make a large batch of brown butter and freeze it. Maybe instead of using powder, you should just add some frozen cubes of brown butter. I wouldn't use entirely brown butter for this, as it doesn't have the same texture as regular butter and is more likely to dissolve into the dough, but some would be a nice addition.

4. Having chunks of butter still in the dough before baking is what gives it optimal flakiness. Grating it would break those up. It's an interesting idea though, and one I hadn't considered.

Saad_94717

Hi @Amos Schorr. Thank you so much for the response. Can you elaborate on the following please:

1. How does unmelted/not fully incorporated butter translate into flakiness?

2. How about using crushed ice instead of cold water? It should still melt on contact with the dough being worked/churned, but perhaps keep the mixture cooler?

In fact, why not replace some of the water with really cold vodka perhaps? You can get it even colder than water (without freezing), plus it will evaporate much more completely and faster than water leading to a shorter/flakier dough! This idea is of course borrowed from the numerous deep frying tempura batters.

3. So, yes I actually did replace some of the butter with brown butter and froze it, chunked it up and incorporated it into the dough. But, I was thinking that since tapioca starch can carry and absorb much more fat than usual flour and also the brown butter powder produced using tapioca starch melts when exposed to the heat of your tongue, the meltiness-in-your-mouth would be dramatically accentuated.

4. Also instead of rolling it out, wouldn't using a pasta roller and layering the dough be preferable?

Once again! Thank you so much for the helpful reply.

Everyone is welcome to weigh in. Perhaps @Grant_Lee_Crilly_63791, @Chris_Young_80640 and @Ben_Johnson_34605 can also weigh in.

tshewman

I can only go by experience. From a final product standpoint, I preferred the grated frozen butter. I can't say the crust was any flakier at all using the chunks as @Amos Schorr described (so it's likely I did something wrong). The grated butter also made the recipe easier.

I would agree with @Amos Schorr regarding the brown butter however. I mostly do it for cookies and such, but that works really well.

Amos_Schorr_168815

Grated butter makes it WAY easier. Using chunks (if you're doing it by hand) is a total PITA to incorporate. But if you do it super carefully, you end up with large-ish chunks of butter suspended in the dough, which also makes it a gigantic PITA to roll out. But it's those suspended chunks of butter that make the crust super flaky and impossibly crisp, and you can't get that same situation from grated butter. The lemon meringue pie I posted on here a while ago was hands down the best pie crust I've ever made or had. It was still just as crisp and flaky two days after it was made, to the point that I was actually able to pick up a slice of pie with my hands, hold it by the end crust, and eat it like pizza. The crust could fully support the weight of the pie.

As with many things, it seems that for the best possible product, you need to put in a vastly disproportionate amount of effort. To the point where it's often not worth it. I generally would rather go the easier route for a slightly worse product, but for special occasions, it can be worth the extra effort.

Amos_Schorr_168815

1. I don't remember the exact science, but basically, the large chunks of fat (in this case, butter) are encased in flour, and then they melt and spread, still encased in that flour. That's what leads to layers in pie crust that almost resemble that of a laminated dough, but are far more substantial given that the ratio of fat:moisture is much higher in pie dough than croissant dough, for example.

2. Ice water will generally be the same temperature as ice that's melting, so that doesn't make much of a difference. I put a LOT of ice cubes in a measuring cup and add some water right before I start making the dough, and by the time I need to add water, it's plenty cold enough. I have a theory I haven't yet tested that I'll get to later.

3. That could work, but you'd have to rework the recipe. It wouldn't be a straight lift and shift, so you'd have to experiment a lot.

4. I haven't tried that, but laminated doughs are often less structurally sound than a pie crust. And many pie doughs wouldn't really go through a pasta roller very easily at all.

Amos_Schorr_168815

I want to test using vodka in pie dough. Since it can get to a MUCH colder temperature than ice water, it might work better. I'm sure people have tried it before, though, and the fact that it's not a popular/well-known technique probably means it's not very effective.

tshewman

Makes me wonder if combining the grated and cubed might lend itself to a slightly easier to and flakier (although the ones that tried it here commented on the flakiness so I'm confused LOL). Or, perhaps as a step of learning. I can envision the pockets would have to naturally increase with larger chunks as the butter melts off.

Amos_Schorr_168815

It might, I think the move would be to add the butter in stages. You could use a machine with the grated butter, and then use your hands to finish incorporating the cubes.