Open crumb where are you?

Some people here can make amazing bread and maybe they can help me. I have been trying few techniques for sourdough bread (mostly from tartine and forkish books). I get decent bread but I would like to get a more open crumb. do I need to develop more strength in the dough? do you slap and fold before bulk? should I use high or low protein flour? Is it because I bake barefoot?

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Manfred__101170

To me that looks like you made an amazing Bread! So I suppose its because you bake barfoot. May someone here can give you better advice than putting shoes on.

FrankM_3301

That looks pretty good to me too. I've started a sourdough formula from here, and hope to be baking tomorrow. It's a really great blog with a lot of detailed information. Perhaps it would be helpful for you.

Jack_Mayer_85396

I agree with Manfred, that looks terrific to me!

Gabriele_Di_Cerbo_40805

haha thank you guys

! I may be a little obsessed with bread lately... I think it is still missing some oven spring, maybe it needs a longer proof

Gabriele_Di_Cerbo_40805

thanks! it is a great blog!

fisher23

First off I have to tell you it looks gorgeous. Great color and beautiful ears. Could you tell us a bit more information? Hydration percentage? Proofing time? Refrigerated proof? I also fold end to end and side to side at least 6 times, once every 30 minutes during bulk fermentation. One thing I do after a long refrigerated proof, I set my proofing banneton on top of my sous vide cambro set at 80-85 °F for about an hour to wake up the yeast prior to baking. I find that the higher percentage of hydration gives a better crumb, but the trade off is I don't get as good of a rise. I like 75-78% hydration which for me is the best compromise of raise and crumb.

I hope that @Shivam_Daryanani_92859 will give his input here, he has mad baking skills.

Gabriele_Di_Cerbo_40805

I did follow tartine's method. hydration was about 80% but I used a new flour that made the dough feel very sloppy. to compensate I did some slap and fold before bulk (I also enjoy messing around with the dough). I did a 4 hours bulk fermentation plus about 12 hours in the fridge. then 30 minutes at room temperature before baking.

nasv

I also use the tartine method, and I have found that practicing the technique at the end of the bulk fermentation is important to the size of your crumb. It's a combination of decisive motions and delicacy from the moment you portion the dough, form a couple of boules (or however many you are making), and then let it bench rest. Then continue to the final formation and proofing. The more delicate I am, the less the gas bubbles in the dough disperse or collapse, and thus the greater opportunity for those gas bubbles to blow up big during the bake.

Everything else you're doing matters of course... hydration, good fermentation, the moist baking environment at the beginning, etc...

Gabriele_Di_Cerbo_40805

sorry I'm a little bit confused, "the technique" = slap and fold? or are you just shaping the dough?

nasv

after all the stretch and folds during the bulk fermentation, you now have dough ready to portion and bench rest, and form, proof, then bake. After the bulk fermentation, I have found more success with an open crumb if I'm successful in the technique with the steps that involve the portioning, the formation of rounds for the bench rest, and then the final shaping. It is here where you have a dough that needs to be firmly formed by your hands, but also that needs more delicacy so that the gas bubbles are not further dispersed or "popped".

I'm not a professional baker, but this is just my take on how I worked on the same challenge that you posted here, that open crumb was important to me.

Shivam_Daryanani_92859

I feel that the "4 hour" bulk fermentation depends on your kitchen temperature. Where do you live and how hot/cold is your kitchen? I am curious to see what your dough looks like after bulk fermentation. Is it "billowy" as he describes in the book?

and yes, what flour are you using?

Have you tried forkish's advanced breads? The one with the double fed sweet levain, that includes some yeast? That is by far my favorite home made bread, the crumb is definitely more open.

I am not bread experiment, but from what it looks like the bulk fermentation is not happening properly. Maybe too much or too less.

Gabriele_Di_Cerbo_40805

you may be right, I live in new york and it is getting colder (kitchen is at 73 f) maybe I should have made a longer bulk... how do you decide to stop bulk fermentation? I'm using a flour I got from a farmer's market with around 10-11% protein. I have never tried levain and yeast together I worry my starter will take it as a sign of mistrust! jokes aside I will try it and let you know. thank you very much!

Gabriele_Di_Cerbo_40805

I'm still working on my shaping skills so that may be a reason too! thank you very much!

Alex_311927

Depending on the ambient temperature of my kitchen, in the colder months I can bulk ferment for a good 6 hours; in the summer sometimes as short as 3. I find the sweetspot for me is a decent aerated feel with about a 3rd increase in volume for naturally leavened doughs. I've used active yeast and starter together in the winter and I find it does help to kickstart the fermentation as active yeast does have more leavening power usually.

wolfiegirl

My first success with achieving the type of crumb I think you're looking for (BIG air pocket holes) was tied exclusively to how I handled the dough from the git-go. You said that your dough felt very sloppy. That's exactly where you want it! The problem is that most times the first instinct is to add more flour and thus, work the dough more yada yada yada. For this type of ancient bread, it's totally unnecessary. As a matter of fact, less is more when it comes to handling this dough. Sorry, this isn't the 'messing around with the dough' kind of technique.

From what you've said, you were on the right track. But next time try this. Compile your dough ingredients, mix it until it is cohesive then let autolyse for 15-20minutes in a covered bowl. This will allow the dough to hydrate. Next step, remove the dough from the bowl and place it on a well oiled counter top. Yep, the dough will be sloppy but that's ok. The oil will keep the dough from sticking. Now begin using the pull and fold method, using a wet bowl scraper if needed. Take the top of the 'blob' of unruly dough, stretch it out a bit then fold it back in on itself. Then do the same with the bottom half the dough, then one side and then the other. Don't be tempted to knead or do anything more than stretch and fold. When you've done that, turn the dough over, using that wet bowl scraper if needed. (Oil and water are two ways of keeping the dough from sticking so keep your bowl scraper in water throughout this process.) After you've completed the first stretch and fold, set your timer for 10 minutes and find something else to do. Repeat this process four times. Stretch, fold, turn the dough over, set the timer for 10 minutes. You should begin to notice that even after the first stretch and fold that the dough is a bit more firm and after four sessions should have lost it's 'sloppiness' and firmed up. It's at this point that you will place that dough in a large, lightly oiled bowl, cover with plastic wrap and move it to the fridge. It can stay there up to four days and will double in size.

When you're ready to bake, take the dough from the fridge about an hour in advance for a larger loaf like the boule you made or ciabatta loaves. Now it's time to prepare the dough for it's final rise and baking. For the sake of argument, let's say you're making two loaves from the dough. Have ready a sheet pan lined with parchment and generous amounts of flour on the parchment and on your hands. Cut the dough into two as gently as you can so as not to degas what the lovely yeast has done all these days. Working as gently as you can take the first hunk of dough and gently (GENTLY IS KEY IN THIS WHOLE PROCESS) pat it out into a rectangle and then again, gently, fold the bottom up to the middle and the top down over that (like folding a letter), and once again, gently move the dough (use your bench scraper here if needed), turning it seam side down onto the floured parchment. Flour the top of the loaf with flour as well. Do the same with the second loaf. Spray the loaves lightly with oil and cover LIGHTLY with an impeccably clean tea towel. Let the dough rest for an hour. After an hour, again gently, turn the dough seam side up and with as little movement to the dough as possible, shape it as you want the end product. Move the dough back onto the floured parchment, spray with oil again, cover and let proof for about another hour. Prep your oven and bake. For the ciabatta I made the oven temp was set at 450° with steam, approx 15 minutes.

Long story short (too late, I know!) the whole idea is to let the yeast do it's work. Period. No long kneading sessions. No handling the dough until it just gives out. Less is more when working with yeast. And by the way, even it you're using sourdough or a biga starter as the lift mechanism, add a couple of grams of yeast to the dough. You'll get a better lift and thus more air pockets and a beautiful crumb.

OH, and one more word about rising. I never use any method to rush a rise out of my bread dough. My kitchen is usually in the mid-70's range, sometimes a tad warmer. I let the yeast/dough get happy all of it's own accord because I truly believe that making bread is a food of love thing. No point in rushing it on. Just let it do it's thing in it's own time. Especially with sourdough. It typically takes a whole lot longer than using straight up yeast to get a nice rise (thus adding a bit of yeast can aid in getting it moving along and insure it will rise!). Slow rise is where the flavor is developed.

Sorry if I get long winded about baking...it's truly a passion of mine.

Gabriele_Di_Cerbo_40805

oh my goodness thank you very much for taking the time to write all of that! it is very useful and I will keep it mind for my next loaf (very soon)