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Pizza

kris_26531

How do you make the perfect pizza when it comes to dough, sauce and topping?

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Jack_Mayer_85396

Thanks for the assist @Louis-Frederic!

lfmichaud

Better heat conduction and higher heat capacity.

mike.minasian

@jack mayer

What's the benefit of the steel over a stone? Better heat conduction?

Andreas_19155

Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone uses a pan to bake a pizza. I am using a 28cm 2,3kg stainless steel pan. The method is very simple:

preheat the pan on the hob
preheat the broiler in your oven
build the pizza on the hob - 40''
finish the pizza under the broiler - 2'

This method has never failed me.

Jack_Mayer_85396

@Micheal_Minasian - have you considered a "Baking Steel?" It's pretty amazing ...

ttpoker

@Andrea Schivo STUNNING! Your dough texture is the holy grail for me, something I will never be able to achieve at home.

Matt_67991

@Lou do you have any tips for working with high hydration dough?

Brendan_Lee_56950

That must have been a nightmare to work with, practice makes perfect there for sure.

Lou_34544

This is probably the best pizza I've ever made. The dough was not my own, but I can tell you it had a very high hydration (70% plus.) I think it also illustrates how important high heat is.

mike.minasian

Managed to sort out my shaping / thickness issues... I took the dough out of the refrigerator as I was preheating the oven (about 30 mins). Used the Forkish Poolish pizza dough with red bag 00.

First pizza is San Marzano, N'duja, Basil, Ricotta Salta.

Second is more traditional Margarita with Mozz DOP, San Marzano, and basil. Clearly the heat is not high enough (and therefore cook time) is much too long to be using fresh mozzarella. I'm either going to get a blackstone next time, or try it with different Mozz. On the bright side, it actually made a really tasty creamy tomato sauce with the completely melted cheese...

Matt_67991

@RandyBobandy as Brendan said, most serious bakers will talk about doughs in terms of hydration percentages, which is the amount of water relative to the flour. This is usually in the range of 60s to low 70s, where the 70s will be starting to get quite wet and will handle differently

The amount of yeast you use depends on how long you want the dough to ferment.

Brendan_Lee_56950

@randybobandy I don't think you'll find a consensus on a ratio like that, most people talk about it in terms of hydration percentages with most recipes I've seen using about 1-1.5% by weight of yeast.

christopher_12897

isnt there a 1 to 1 to 1 ratio? like 1 cup of water per pound of flour and 1 tablespoon of yeast?

Brendan_Lee_56950

I did pies for dinner last night. This was failure cum experiment. I started with a 65% hydration dough with 00 flour but it turns out my yeast was dead so after 18 of fermentation it hadn't risen at all. So instead of chucking it I decided to let it ride and see how the natural yeast would fare. Fast forward to 36 hours it had increased about 2/3 in size. At 72 hours I decided to fold in a fresh batch of dough with new yeast (in effect one autolyse I suppose) and made some pies.

It had a nice tang akin to sourdough from the long ferment and had a nice spring and texture. I think I will back down to 30 hours of fermentation next time but I really like this outcome.

mike.minasian

Anyone using the Forkish poolish pizza dough recipe? I made a few pies last night that turned out well, but the crust was WAY too thick. Almost comically so. Very tasting, but I guess it just didn't stretch enough. Forkish recommends keeping the dough in the refrigerator until right before you bake it, but I have some dough left from yesterday and I'm thinking I should take it out 1-2 hours before to make it more pliable / easy to work with. Thoughts? Btw the pizza seems fine going in, just had tremendous oven spring, and I'm guessing the high heat caused the middle to contract slightly

Andrea_Schivo_76014

p.s.: no sugar needed!! (sorry for mistake, I'm Italian...)

this is the image of my pizza

Andrea_Schivo_76014

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/10170725_10203718875278816_2390803153217048090_n.jpg

This is one of my pizza Napoli Style, I prefer a medium/medium-high protein flour, 62-65% hydration and minimum 16-18 hours at 20 °C (68°F)

:-)

Pepijn_31744

I'd say it's fair to assume he's using baker's percentage ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_percentage ). 250g salt does sound like an awful lot.

Nicky_J_17040

@santosh

are you sure about the 25% salt and oil?

santosh_92039

Pizza may sound simple but it takes a lot to make a awesome tasting pizza.

Pizza always takes different amount of yeast with the cold and hot season.

My recipe is as follows for pizza dough.

1 kg 00 pizza flour (Molina Dallagiovanna, green bag)

1.8% fresh yest in summer 2.4% on winter

58% water

25% good evo.

10% sugar.

25% salt (almost at the end but make sure it is mix through the dough evenly.

Cook it wood fire oven for 345 degree celcuis to max 365 degree max. Enjoy your pizza

Eileen_74790

Developing the gluten is so important in pizza production. There is a test call "window pane" if your not familiar with this I can explain….after the dough is kneaded for approximately 5-8 minutes you take a small ball size sample and flatten it out and then stretch for form a " window pan" effect with out tearing the dough. If this "window pane" is achieved then you dough is read for proofing>

Chef E

mike.minasian

I highly suggest reading through this thread, especially if you are considering getting a Blackstone...it seems to produce amazing results at home.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25127.0

My experience has been that the best pizza I've made at home has been the Forkish method in Flour Water Salt Yeast. I'd like to do true Neapolitan style, but it doesn't seem realistic to me unless you have a WFO or a Blackstone.

The highly regarded "TXCraig" Neapolitan Dough process on PizzaMaking forum is here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20477.0

Below is a picture of the Forkish method pizza I did in a standard oven. Below that is some bread made with similar dough from his book using a dutch oven.

ttpoker

@Lou:

A quick google search confirmed that the difference between red and blue 00 Caputo is the amount of gluten in the finished dough. But I agree that a typical home cook probably would not be able to tell the difference between the two - I certainly could not. I have however done tests comparing standard white flour and 00 Caputo red and I disagree... I found better results when attempting a lighter pizza dough. If I am looking for a dense NY style then standard flour is fine.

When I say "he is a purist" I meant in the finished product, he prefers margarita w/o extra toppings to assure that each ingredient is tasted. I agree he was not a purist using your definition, he does deviate by using some slightly more modern choices such as the use of salt at the end of the mix, the addition of EVO, and cold leavening. These choices are not original standards - but he explained these techniques have been embraced over time by many, and would help improve performance at home using my chosen method - the baking steel. I live in a high-rise, so something like a Blackstone is not an option for me.

I forgot to mention in my post above that the addition of EVO was primarily for flavor, he does not use olive oil in all of his doughs, just select ones IIRC - and he advised it for the baking steel method because the flavor profile would match well with the extreme heat generated from the heat sink.

Previous to my crash course I was using a 75% hydration, but I found the dough to be too hard to work with. Very sticky, hard to shape, but I agree the dough was very "light" in comparison. The ratio I provided in my first post was much easier to work with, I suspect I will stick with this for a while until I have the freedom to experiment with higher hydration rations once again. Interesting that you do not appear to want spotting, why is that?

Nicky_J_17040

@Lou....I gotta couple of questions

with IDY, you're going straight into the flour, with salt as well?

how much kneading is really necessary if you plan to ferment for a few days?

how do you ferment your dough at work vs. at home. 3 days in the fridge?

where are you located? just curious. always lookin for a good pie.

thanks

Lou_34544

@inthecards

The red bag, "Chef's Flour" is the same as the blue bag Caputo flour. It's strictly marketing. Additionally, the benefits of the Caputo flour really aren't apparent in a consumer oven.

Sorry to say, your teacher is not a purist if he's stretching in white flour, cold fermenting the dough, and adding EVOO to the sauce and dough. Not that I think tradition leads to better results.

I work in a Neapolitan pizzeria 5 days a week. I've made the dough, I've worked the oven, I've observed daily changes in everything over the past 2 years. I've made and tested my own dough with different hydrations, fermentation methods, tomatoes, cheeses, flours, baked at different temperatures, etc and I'm telling you all of the super-fine detailing of everything is unnecessary.

Keep it simple, be guided by your taste buds, and any other changes that come will have to do with the hydration of your dough, the heat you cook at, and the enzymatic state of your dough. At home, good california plums adjusted to taste with salt and sugar, good mozzarella, and a mild EVOO are all you need to top with. IMO, the dough is really the most important part of the equation.

These are my observations:

1) Doughs higher in hydration will be less dense than doughs lower in hydration. That is, a higher hydration dough may be "lighter." I personally prefer 63% hydration and up.

2) Higher hydration gives you less "leopard spotting."

3) The longer or harder you ferment your dough, the more pronounced the blistering/spotting will be. You may also observe larger blisters as opposed to smaller blisters.

4) The heat you bake at will affect all of these things. I routinely bake with a floor temperature of 900 to 950 degree F.

If you're really into making pizza, the best way to bake it at home short of shelling out for a 10 grand pizza oven is one of the Blackstone ovens. It's the only way you can get close to a Neapolitan style pizza at home. The baking steel is going to give you more of a "high heat NY style" pizza.

Also, IDY is fine if fresh yeast is unavailable. I use it at home because it's less of a hassle.

sebastian_palmigiani_21610

In theCards thanks for the share!

agree with you about the MCH pizza sauce. it is way too oily. i did not like it at all. i just hand crush fresh organic tomatoes now + just a little seasoning of basil, salt, and EVO.

the challenge i'm working on now is hand shaping the dough so that it has an even thickness.

kris_26531

Wow!

Have learned a lot

This is what I currently use at my pizza:

Dough:

00 flour

salt

yeast

sugar

water

olive oil

Tomato sauce:

canned tomatoes

tomato puree

oregano

basil

marjoram

anise seeds

fennel seeds

salt

pepper

garlic

shallot

lemon

As toppings i use sirloin steak, onion, paprika and cheese.

ttpoker

Thx Johan. Unfortunately it was a crash 1 on 1 course so I had little time to take notes, that post is all from memory. Sanremo was a nice stop on my European trip (currently in Monaco and hope to try the famous Louis XVII from Ducass), but without a doubt the best part of visiting Sanremo was this pizziola course - it was pure gold. My understanding of the craft of pizza making has certainly been elevated after that experience, even if I forgot some details the sum of my results going forward will be greatly improved. Hope my notes help others on Chefsteps!

PS: Does anyone know the name of the tool that a pizziola uses to lift the pie and remove it once it has entered the oven? In Italy a peel is just for placing the pie in the oven, the rest of the work is done with this other tool - but I don't know what it was called.

Nicky_J_17040

@In theCards.

Thank you very much for giving us an inside into your pizza course. What is the difference between blue and red (00 flour)?

And if I can't get my hands on fresh yeast, what do you recommend?

I'm sure I will be picking your brain more!

seijoed

We should post this more permanently somewhere. Excellent writeup.