MSG BRINE

What do you think?

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I've been planning on trying that with tofu. Either vacuum infuse or even just make the tofu with MSG enhanced water in the initial boiling.

Brandon_Byrd_40557

I don't see why not. If MSG is good in a rub (and it is), it should be good in a brine as well! What kind of application are you thinking? Pork?

trev_teich

I'm thinking duck

Brendan_Lee_56950

Oooo, this makes me think about an MSG salt cure

trev_teich

Good idea

Tim_Roth_78505

I found a book on processed meats that in several places states that the advantage to adding MSG to meats is minimal unless they're heavily processed. It might be good to make sure you run a negative control with just salt if you're going to use higher quality meats. Definitely seems like a cool thing to try with lower quality products, though, or maybe something like a pickled vegetable.

"Monosodium glutamate (MSG) , inosine monophosphate (IMP) , and guanosine monophosphate (GMP) are used as meat flavor enhancers as allowed under USDA regulations. They are most often used in meat loaves, soups, stews, hash, and in canned and deviled ham . There seems to be little advantage to using these flavor enhancers in products containing a high proportion of meat protein, but they can improve flavor where the amount of high quality meat protein is limited." - Pearson and Gillett, Processed Meats (3rd Edition), 1996

Brandon_Byrd_40557

@TimRoth: I'd disagree with Pearson and Gillett on that. I will often season meats with MSG before cooking and have found it to enhance the flavor quite nicely. Grilled chicken thighs taste especially meaty. I usually do an equilibrium salt brine on those and surface season with pepper and MSG just before grilling. I'll have to try it with MSG in the brine next time.

Tim_Roth_78505

It's definitely an older resource, so I'll keep looking to see if there's anything about brining specifically. I did a quick check for diffusion coefficients of glutamate compared to sodium - they appear to be comparable in cheeses, but I didn't take the time to find out if they've been analyzed in various meats. Ideally, what I really want to know is whether or not there's a detection limit for MSG at which it either makes no difference to have more or it negatively impacts the flavor. I suspect it would take way more than you'd achieve through a brine, though. I still think it's good to test it with a sodium control, though, especially if the meat itself contains way more glutamate than what you'd manage to diffuse through in the first place.

trev_teich

@Tim Roth I'm going to have to disagree with your books and say that you should taste, taste, taste. Use your pallet. I wouldn't do a only msg brine anyway. I would use a salt and MSG combo. As for using it with lower quality products, I don't think that makes much of a difference. That would be like saying "only use garlic powder with Tyson chicken." MSG is a seasoning and absolutely has a taste, one has to only try it. Seem like debating weather an orange has a taste. It just dose. I don't have to read a book to tell me what I taste.

trev_teich

And of course there is a "detection limit". If you add one grain of salt to a steak I'm guessing you won't taste it.

Tim_Sutherland_52834

You would need to set up a few blind triangle tests with MSG only, salt only and no brine and see if a panel can notice a difference.

reub_50398

Hey Trevor - I just tried this last week (having not seen your post and not attempting any experimental control or whatnot). The results were pretty tasty. I brined some chicken thighs with about 1.1% NaCL and .6% MSG (and spices) in an equilibrium brine. I may dial back the level a bit next time but it was pretty good. There was definitely a pronounced umami boost.

I'm wondering what the considerations are when brining with MSG. It seems that it has roughly 30% of the sodium of NaCL, so my thought would be to triple it to keep the sodium level constant, but I'm not sure what that does to the glutamate or how to properly dose that component. I remember David Chang's comment that people who have an aversion to it likely are just getting too much salt. I'd be interested to see tests where some percentage of the sodium in an equilibrium brine is replaced by MSG, (adjusting for relative sodium content). Then again, I haven't taken chemistry since high school so it's possible I have no earthly idea what I'm talking about...

tshewman

@reub, I can't find David Chang's comment on the too much salt. So I'm not sure what reaction he's referring to and the possible source of the reaction. Do you have a link?

reub_50398

@Todd I believe it was during a Mad symposium talk. When I get back later I'll find the video link for you.

Brendan_Lee_56950

He's referring to the infamous Chinese restaurant syndrome, basically the people who complain about being sensitive to msg are really feeling the effects of way too much salt intake

reub_50398

Here's the video. Brendan summed it up nicely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji74pUeMayg

I guess my question is twofold:

1) Is the right way to think about replacing some of the salt (sodium chloride) in a brine with msg to substitute by relative sodium content? I.e. rather than 15g of sodium chloride per 1L of water+protein, 7.5g sodium chloride and ~24g msg? That just feels a bit high given recipes I've seen here on ChefSteps.

2) Assuming the salinity level is acceptable, what (if any) are the remaining considerations for dosing msg? I.e. optimal levels for flavor, texture, etc.

Tim_Roth_78505

Sodium chloride is 58.44g/mol and MSG is 169.111g/mol. One mole of sodium chloride has as many molecules of sodium as one mole of MSG, so you'd have to add (169.111/58.44)=2.84 grams of MSG for every gram of salt in order to get the equivalent amount of sodium. For the above, this basically means that you'd get the same amount of sodium from 7.5g salt and ~21g MSG combined as you would from 15g of salt.

Sorry if this is redundant - I think you may have already done this, but I figured I'd post the strict conversions for reference. I still think it would be worthwhile to compare the MSG brine to a standard brine (equivalent amounts of sodium in each) and do a blind taste test just to see how much of a difference it makes (not because I don't like MSG - MSG is glorious - but because it might not make much difference given that meat itself is already very high in glutamate).

tshewman

@reub - I would tend to agree with Tim both in terms of why the ratios (if interested Harvard has an online course that helps with this as well). I am also uncertain what the effects are on the remaining MSG/glutamate and if it would impact flavor.
Regarding David Chang's explanation, while passionate it is quite oversimplified which is likely due to the short term with the audience. Obviously, just because MSG is a salt, does not make it the same as all salts. Nor does us having glutamate receptors make it "ok" to consume more. The Chinese restaurant syndrome and pointing at MSG is also oversimplified. The receptors, membrane potentials etc of the host would seem to be an concern/potential issue (none of which the cook/chef has control over), Thus at this point, we can logically not point the finger solely at MSG. It is also difficult to know even subjectively if one is sensitive to MSG and I don't foresee an easy objective test on the horizon. Further, if they are, it is likely they are sensitive to many other things as at the cellular level things would be "sensitized" which means we're still running in a circle as we don't know why (yet). There are many functional cellular reset programs but to the best of my knowledge, these are aimed more at diabetic types. Regardless, by pointing the arrow solely at MSG would seem to be a bit misdirected. IMHO (sorry for the tangent).

Brendan_Lee_56950

The thing we have to understand is that glutamic acid isn't easily passed through the blood brain barrier on it's own, in fact, there are specifically designed systems in one of the barriers (there are 2) to expel excess glutamate. Even more important though, is that someone with a sensitivity to glutamic acid would essentially be sensitive to an essential part of human chemistry.

I know it's always going to be a sensitive subject because of the damage "chinese restaurant syndrome" created early on in the history of the product. But salt goes through the same rollercoaster ride, some years it's the devil and you shouldn't eat any, some years it's fine you can eat as much as you want, and other's it's the standard "it depends on your genetics" answer.

tshewman

That would be epigenetics and turning systems/pathways on/off (like cellular response). Exciting times.

Brendan_Lee_56950

I'm tempted to break out my old neuropsych books and seeing what they have to say about it. If I come across them when unpacking I'll see what they have to say.

tshewman

I suspect much has changed if the books are older. Close friends of mine continue to take courses as well as teach portions.

GaryT_92514

I thought the negatively charged chloride ions in the table salt were also critical for the effectiveness of the brine? Substituting with glutamate might then be at the cost of efficacy.