Prosumer espresso machine

I was wondering if anyone has any advice on purchasing a prosumer espresso machine. I've been reading tons of reviews on Coffee Geek, but figured I would pose the question out there and see if anyone had advice, warnings, or recommendations....

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rsantayanajr

I have researched this for days in the past... best recommendations seem to go to some of the most expensive units. I guess you get what you pay for with this kind of thing?

I don't have any specific recommendations but remembered hearing about this kickstarter espresso machine (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine)... lots of controversy whether it can deliver on the coffee forums I've browsed.

Just thought I'd share. I'm also interested in hearing some sage advice here on ChefSteps. For now I'm getting my faux-espresso (really just concentrated really tasty coffee) from my amazing Aeropress.

Cheers.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

I usually go drool at Seattle Coffee gear.

I'm not sure that kickstarter will deliver either.

I have a pavoni from eu, love that machine and design,

I used to have a Saeco superautomatic but the cpu board fried.

You can do fantastic things with the Rancilo and a Pid,

http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/crossland-coffee-cc1

is similar to that and works quite well.

You can do even more fantastic pulls with an E61 group machine

like say the Alex Duetto II which is only 2k more (It does make insanely good coffee)...

James_Hoffmann_21713

A couple of questions:

- Are you looking to upgrade what you have? (If so - what do you have now?)

- Budget?

Chris_Young_80640

I totally want to know what @jimseven would recommend.

These days we drive a La Marzocco Linea system (on loan fromt the very good people at La Marzocco).

Johan_Edstrom_5586

It was very nice of you to share that @Chris, now I'm not envious at all. :P

crkoller

@jimseven looking to buy my first, when I am home my I use my parent's Breville (which although I have no issue with Breville as a company and think many of their products are great) I do not think it really delivers on quality. As far as a budget - considering I just bought a Polyscience Professional (from the Chefsteps Shop...currently $150 off due to a factory part shortage) I won't be buying this tomorrow, but probably sometime in the fall as a birthday present for myself.

Price range would ideally be under $1500, but if your argument as to why I should spend more than that is convincing enough, as a huge espresso fan I could easily see myself spending closer to $2500.

I'll obviously need a nice burr grinder as well, I've heard good things about the Rancilio Rocky grinder, but if people have thoughts on grinders I'm all ears

James_Hoffmann_21713

If you're starting a new setup then the grinder is the thing to worry about. The better the grinder, the better your espresso. Give me a great grinder and a $300 espresso machine, and I will pull you way, way better shots than a $15,000 espresso machine and a crappy grinder.

The Rocky is OK. Typically people pair them with a PID modded Rancilio Silvia, and that's where it tops out. This is a pretty solid starter setup that will deliver some solid results.

Breville actually make a surprisingly good twin boiler espresso machine which they are about to update. They also do a surprisingly good grinder to go with it.

I'm generally against espresso at home (so time consuming, messy and annoying to dial in each day - I'd rather pay someone else to deal with it all!), and pro enjoying better drip and having a good grinder for that - but this is totally off topic.

Brendan_Lee_56950

what grinder would you recommend in lieu of the Rocky?

Tim_Sutherland_52834

@Jimseven, come live in heartland America for a while and you'll change your mind about making espresso at home.

crkoller

@jimseven I agree that the pros always have an edge on the home culinarian; however, because I 1) work in healthcare my time to venture out of the hospital to get decent coffee is limited (and the stuff that they make in the break room isn't coffee) and 2) I don't live in New York, Seattle, San Francisco where you can get a really good espresso. With that in mind would you have any recommendations

grant

Quick mills are the best for home in my opinion.

http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/quick-mill-dual-boiler-qm67-espresso-machine

I have used this model many times and love it.

The real question is, what kind of grinder are you getting.

I suggest this one as well:

http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/rancilio-rocky-coffee-grinder

Cheers.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

Oh, I didn't know the Quickmill was an E61 - looks nice too.

crkoller

@grant_lee_crilly the Quickmilll and the Rocky are I guess not surprisingly both on my short list after reading review after review, glad you hear that you approve!

jeff_51656

I spent a lot of time picking out a machine/grinder combo in the $500-1500 total spend range. I ended up landing on a QuickMill Silvano and Baratza Vario-W.

http://www.chriscoffee.com/Quickmill_Silvano_p/4005.htm

The Silvano is PID controlled, has a pressure gauge, decent sized boiler, good size reservoir, and solid construction. Very easy to use and produces consistently good shots. The only major downside is the lack of steam power. But I find once you perfect the technique for this particular steam wand it is perfect for an occasional milk drink. I also feel it has a pretty small footprint considering the feature set, price, etc, which can be a huge benefit for someone like me in a 1 bedroom apartment. I have had it for almost a year now and I have absolutely no complaints.

I second some of the other opinions that there is no need to get a good machine if you aren't going to pair it with a good grinder.

Chris_Young_80640

The Baratza is a nice unit.

crkoller

@jeff thanks for the advice, I'll look into those models. Also welcome to the site!

Sumit__65166

you should definitely look at http://www.breville.com.au/the-dual-boiler.html

ok, i'm australian and i'm bit biased. however, i own a delonghi (ESAM6700) and i bought mine almost 4yrs ago.

breville the dual boiler has some great reviews! i'd definitely look at this when i purchase my next machine.

however, for home use you might want to look at either semi-automatic if not fully-automatic. i've owned 2 manual coffee machine in past but in the morning rush i would hardly ever use it. it's fair amount of work to make a coffee when you're hardly awake in the morning! sure, it's bit of fun at start but as time goes it seems like another chore to do in the morning, and you endup buying coffee outside.

regardless of what you buy make sure you regularly descale your machine, and if possible clean the infuser. finally, always use filtered water.

i've had coffee at few places outside, and i could taste the limestone...

this goes without saying, if possible you'd need small batch freshly roasted single origin or better yet micro lot beans.

all this coffee talk... i'm off to make me a piccolo!

jeff_51656

I'm generally against espresso at home (so time consuming, messy and annoying to dial in each day - I'd rather pay someone else to deal with it all!), and pro enjoying better drip and having a good grinder for that - but this is totally off topic.

While I generally agree with what @jimseven agreed, I disagree with the point quoted above. I think this is like saying folks should leave the cooking techniques discussed in great detail on this site to folks like Chris and Grant! I have a $900 machine and $500 grinder and can get great results with a little bit of knowledge and experience in coffee that certainly pales in comparison to the knowledge and experience folks on this site have about food. I find a lot of the espresso I make at home to be of similar quality or better to many of the shots I have gotten at great shops in NY, Seattle, Portland, SF, etc. Are there shots out there that I have had that blow mine out of the water? Of course. However, Grant and Chris's food blow mine out of the water, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop cooking and experimenting at home. Though to be clear, I definitely recommend tasting as much espresso from great shops around the world as possible while still making your own at home!

I also don't recommend automatic machines as @lostinsydney. Again, to me it doesn't fit this community. You will get much better results on a manual setup by reading up and getting a little practice! I feel most of the folks here are on here because they are trying to produce the most delicious things possible. That simply wont happen with an automatic setup. @lostinsydney makes a great point about getting the best coffee possible. You may want to try your hand at home roasting if you don't have any good local roasters.

Good luck no matter what you decide. Some great suggestions on this thread for you to look into.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

I'm with @jeff....

I'll rather have the shakes til 4am having perfected a pull than paying for it.

I'm also seconding get a great grinder, look at sourcing roasts or start

Doing that yourself too, popcorn machines are a good start.

Look for a machine with a good group.

After having 4 super automatics in the family, meh.

Sumit__65166

if you're getting manual machine, you need to get a grinder. pre ground coffee for manual is not the right way to go. one more thing, freshly roasted coffee needs a week or two to mature depending upon the origin of the bean. and they good for another week or two. i go thru 250g in a week!

once you've a grinder, you can get yourself cold drip and syphon in future.

i've Breville Smart Grinder BCG800, and i paid around $180 for it in australia. however, i had to request washer from breville. it has known bug but it can be easily fixed. i would highly recommend looking at this for home use.

unfortunately, if you need to get a good automatic it will cost 3k upwards.

i wouldn't recommend popcorn maker for roasting coffee beans. it's like cooking a perfect steak in an oven. i was hoping someday soon we'll have a great roaster for small batch on kickstarter!

Johan_Edstrom_5586

Actually thermocouple controlling a popcorn machine gives you about the oven / commercial roaster, if you followed the DYI section, I've done a lot of DYI coffee too (Which I never posted here), I work quite closely with a bunch of caffeine heads in the San Jose area, we evaluate brewers and machines as we get ahold of them. But yes you are right, you want the right temp, moisture and type of roaster, then storage and I've found 10 days being the optimal for flavor and development.

When I say a good grinder I am suggesting you look for drip at the > $200 range and for espresso at the > $500 range - it slims out, the oils, beans, texture all play into this, you also want to learn your group and start marking how heavy your compaction is in relation to the amount of grind, the time it takes for a crema - then also looking at everything else

-- What I'm really saying is I'd happily buy the Breville for my dad, I got him a chef series sous vide machine. - Right now he has a Jura Super auto, He used to have a Gaico Super, I pull better shots timing my no dial pavoni. - If you actually measure out and weigh on a scale after compaction shots of a superior class you want to start using a full group head.

grant

I would also add to stay away from the rocky machine. Everyone I have ever know that has had one has had many issues with there machines. They seam to be temperamental, unless they have made some serious changes in the last few years that is.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

@Grant_Lee_Crilly - the gals at Seattle Coffee Gear give the same advice (They are awesome btw) - I'd look at some of their other offerings.

crkoller

@Johan_Edstrom I watch those ladies YouTube videos all the time, they are hilarious haha

James_Hoffmann_21713

I'm aware that my comment about espresso machines was a little controversial - and I'm well aware that people here like to get involved with the process of making things. I guess I just worry that it isn't super rewarding to just dabble in - the way sous vide cooking is. If you really get into espresso then upgraditis tends to set in and it gets pretty quickly pretty expensive.

Going the other direction, I thought it would be fun to post what I would buy if coffee quality were the most important thing. If I were to put together an ideal home espresso setup then it would be:

Grinder: Anfim Super Caimano. Not the sexiest grinder out there, it is big and a little noisy. However, the burrset is excellent and you can squeeze a little more of the soluble material out of the coffee without getting overextraction (20% extraction shots are relatively easy and tasty with relatively light roasted espresso coffee - if you've dug into the extraction section in the coffee chapter in MC then this would probably make sense). A lot of domestic grinders are going to top out at a lower extraction because the tend to produce a lot of fines, which means with your particle size distribution causes problems. Top end grinders like the Mazzer Robur are quick, but again they struggle to get the grind profile to a point where things are as tasty as is possible. OK if you're in an environment that demands you produce >1000 shots of espresso. Otherwise, not so good. (Anfim list price $1,800)

Espresso Machine: If I was going for a single group then either a Kees Van Der Westen Speedster, a Synesso Hydra, or a La Marzocco GS3. (I've worked on pressure profiling in espresso, but am not yet convinced on its value). In terms of performance they're all pretty much the same. The Speedster is the prettiest. I wouldn't expect a massive increase in quality against a decent domestic dual boiler like the Breville. (list price $6,500-10,000)

Water: This has more influence on the coffee taste than the espresso machine. Way more (it actually depresses me). There is a water info for coffee PDF here, and if your water is a long way from this then either buy it in or install a reverse osmosis set up. If you're brewing coffee at home, and the water is hard/has high TDS then I promise you'll be stunned by brewing with better water.

grant

FYI, I find lots of single group GS-3's in Seattle's Craigslist for around 3-3.5K often. None on at the moment.

Johan_Edstrom_5586

Gah... 3.5k that is like 2 days of billing...

Just kidding

Johan_Edstrom_5586

@jimseven I actually think your post and your second post as well were great.

I've read, re-read, conferred with other coffee heads, I've had coffee from the Anfim, I've had a pull from the GS3 - Sure you put things into perspective but I also think (and I hope you wanted that) you'd with a crowd like this incite rebellion

We, since you told us we'll fail will be forced to try!

The knowledge, research, comments, inspiration and sharing is valued far more than you know.

Thanks!!

Chris_Young_80640

@James — Any chance we can get a post on why one set of burrs can get a much better result—soluble extraction—than another? I think I understand this subject more than most, and even I'm not entirely clear on why a more uniform distribution (well, tight bi- or tri-modal) results in greater extraction yield.

Chris_Young_80640

Oh, and if I haven't told you already, welcome to ChefSteps. Awesome to have you be part of our community, and when will you be getting to Seattle?