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Knife Sharpening Videos, Store, and Whetstones

Patrick_Ancillotti_6135

Hey Guys,

I did some poking around on youtube, and came across your knife sharpening videos, which btw, are awesome, and not just because of the use of an epic moustache. Are these to be a part of a future course? or were they just something you guys were playing around with? Are you guys planning on selling Whetstones in the store? and, any suggestions on how to shop for stones to sharpen my shiny set of Ken Onion (and Classics) Shuns?

Thanks!

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Comments

susan_fox_33805

Thanks, PG. I may be suffering double posts today too for that very reason. We shall see. Appreciate the tip :-)

pgcath

@susan - I found I have to wait a bit after the preview loads, like 45 seconds or so, and then post. It's odd. And it is the source of me sometimes double posting.

susan_fox_33805

Oh I give up :-)

susan_fox_33805

This photo was supposed to upload:

susan_fox_33805

OK...seven months later I finally worked up the courage to take a stab at the whetstones. For a rote beginner I did well enough, but learning the left side/right side arc is going to be challenging. I'm such a righty that swtiching to the left feels awkward and I have to think about my approach for a second or two. I'm sure that will fade with practice. The knives (including my beloved shun!) came out no worse for the wear and noticeably sharper than they started - they won't produce a racing stripe on my forearm, but for now they are good enough. Glad to have finally worked up the courage.

susan_fox_33805

That's my favorite part too @Grant - it looks like something I've fought against in World of Warcraft ;-)

Jack_Mayer_85396

He's a fascinating guy. And those blades ...

grant

My favorite part is the giant rotary press at 1:28.

grant

This is a random but great video. A local magician around here in the PNW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVtWXHq02R4

Jack_Mayer_85396

Hello Bob, thanks for sharing your considerable expertise! I too find this fascinating. I sell knives at a kitchenware store (Sur La Table) and have been through numerous manufacturers' training courses (some good, some useless). In my experience the terminology for various steels is "high carbon, stainless" steel is the norm for companies like Wusthof, Zwilling/Henckels, Shun and others. Zwilling/Henckels is also producing Bob Kramer designed knives in Japan made from "true" carbon steel, also known in metalworking shops as "tool steel." High carbon, stainless steel knives are resistant to rusting, discoloorization and other maladies, while true carbon steel knives must be cared for with greater diligence. They are prone to rusting and discoloration. The benefit is that a much sharper edge is attainable in a true carbon steel knife. As I understand it, the grain structure of the steel is finer in a carbon steel kinife viz-a-viz an high carbon, stainless steel knife. Is this accurate? Does the foregoing advance the general fund of knowledge on this thread? I hope so. Looking forward to reading more ...

Bob_Miller_35126

@Chris I just did a quick search on stainless

cutlery. Most are 440 types, and those

come in three grades, A,B &C. They

differ in carbon levels. None have

copious amounts of carbide formers, but all have at least some. A quick look at the chemistries of tool

steels used for cutlery reveals a greater volume of carbide formers than

stainless. Mostly Molybdenum, which is

not a great carbide former, nor is Tungsten, but they do have a fair amount of

Vanadium. I would agree with your friend

if he is talking about holding an edge (wear).

The tool steels, at least in this search, appear to be more abrasion

resistant and therefore hold its edge longer.

However, sharpening to the same fine point should not be different. I am beginning to understand that this may be

a difference in semantics. Fortuneately

or not, my career has allowed me to design thousands of alloys, many of which

did not end up as choices kitchen cutlery.

This has been a good exchange for me, and perhaps of benefit to your

forum. Keep up the great work.

Bob Miller

Bob_Miller_35126

@ Brendon Lee My personal preference is any type of hardwood and no plastic. There are many types of plastics, but all are polymers, which are extemely abrasive. Perhaps teflon would be more desireable, but I haven't seen a Teflon board. Keep in mind that all wood contains micro abrasive particles, and these will dull your knive. So, it behooves us all to keep them as clean as possible. As far as storing knives, my wife individually wraps each of her kitchen knives in soft napkins. It appears to be pretty effective.

Bob Miller

seijoed

This is awesome. I've learned more about knives in a few days than I had in years previously.

Bob_Miller_35126

@Chris I can understand your preference for high

carbon as opposed to stainless, but let me suggest that we are using very broad

terms here. High carbon consists of

thousands of alloy combinations, and the same can be said of stainless. I have designed both for many years, and I

can tell you there is no difference in "honing" an edge between the

two when comparing apples to apples. And

therein lies the problem. I will bet

that the stainless knives do not contain nearly the volume of carbide formers

that high carbon knives do. 14% Chromium

stainless is more expensive than a high carbon steel, so there is reluctance to

add these carbide formers to stainless.

That being said, there are stainless alloys that contain the same

amounts and types of carbides as high carbon steel. I have designed both for shredding equipment

and never found them to be any different to holding an edge. Both performed equally as well. I would expect the same in culinary

knives.

I don't doubt what

your source is saying, but I think at this point, the comparison is not apples

to apples. It appears that the challenge

might be to find a reputable stainless knife manufacturer to adequately compare

the two. There are a lot of other items

to consider here, but that is probably outside the scope of this forum. Food for Thought: High carbon and stainless can either start

with either hot rolled or forged blanks.

There is a big difference in characteristics and quality depending on

the starting materials.

Love the banter back

and forth.

Bob Miller

Bob_Miller_35126

@Grant Thanks for the reply. I feel quite intimidated by the fact that you guys are professional chefs, and I just a hacker, but I'm happy that I can contribute. Your comments are welcomed and appreciated.

Bob

grant

I love it! I love having experts in different areas at the forums. This is what I was hoping for when we set out to do this. Thanks so much Bob.

Grant

Chris_Young_80640

@Bob A fantastic post, and your knowledge is very welcome here. I may indeed be misinformed about carbides—although the source was an extremely reputable person in the high-end knife industry. I may, however, be misinterpreting what they were talking about.

Here is the question: There is no question in my mind that high-carbon steels can be honed an edge that is significantly sharper that can be achieved with a stainless knife. There are downsides, of course, to using a high carbon steel knife— corrosion, staining, chipping of the brittle blade—but these are things that skilled chefs are willing to accept and take care for in exchange for a blade that can be made much sharper. The person I was speaking with about carbides suggested to me that carbides are the reason that you cannot get a stainless blade as sharp as a high carbon steel knife.

Thoughts?

Brendan_Lee_56950

@Bob_Miller what type of board would you recommend then for keeping your knives in optimal form for the longest duration possible?

Bob_Miller_35126

Chris, I think you have been misinformed about carbides. I am intimately knowledgeable about carbide formation .......... I have a US Patent on Titanium Carbide formation in alloy steels. Carbides cannot form on knife edges. They have to added in the molten metal state. Some elements such as Titanium have a high affinity for Carbon, and form carbides readily, while Molybdenum is rather sluggish. Carbides do not contribute to dulling a knife, they actually help prevent it. Carbides help resist abrasion, which is the chief cause of dulling. Abrassive particles abound in food, meat, bone, and in particular, cutting boards. Plastic boards are the worse. Cheap wood boards are responsible as well.

Bob_Miller_35126

Thanks to

everyone who responded to my

posting. I do want to say that I am not

a knife expert, but I do hope that my metallurgical experience and knowledge is

helpful to those who are interested. As

a woodcarver many years ago, I spent

many hours sharpening my tools. I must

admit that it does take patience and practice to do it well. However there are some fundamentals that

should be considered. But let me first

address some of the questions that you all had.

Western vs. Eastern steel:

In a nutshell, every

part of the world has good and bad steel.

Steel is a byproduct of

mined iron ore, which contains

carbon and iron as the main ingredients.

The iron ore, depending upon what part of the world it is mined, can

have good and/or bad qualities. What one

does with the ore in the refining process determines the quality of the end

product, steel. For certain applications

such as hardness and toughness, I have found only a handful of steel mills

throughout the world capable of producing consistent products. Most are either European or North

American. That is not to say that

Eastern mills don't produce quality products, they do. Since I'm not a knife expert, I can't comment

on who makes the best. I do understand

that the knife production can very between 25 to over 100 operations. Therein lies the roots of quality knives.

Stainless vs. High Carbon Steel:

Only magnetic

Martensitic Stainless, as I mentioned before, is a candidate for knives. High Carbon Alloy Steel is also, and usually

contains higher amounts of carbon than Stainless, but that has absolutely

nothing to do with the quality, nor the hardness obtained in the final

product. And it has nothing to do with

sharpening or honing. Both can be

hardened to the same level, and both can be toughened up by tempering. The main difference is the Chromium

level. Stainless has at least 14%

Chromium. At this critical level, the

Chromium forms a Chromium Oxide on the surface, which is instantaneously formed

if scratched off. High Carbon Steel

usually contains much less than 14% Chromium and therefore is not corrosion or

rust resistant. And in my mind, this is

the governing factor in choosing an alloy.

Culinary knives come in contact with acids all the time, which can be a

source for oxidation and rust, which microscopically speaking, is some of the

reason for dullness. Stainless is the

only way to go. As far as carbides go,

both can needled with the same carbides to aid in abrasion resistance.

Carbides:

In all due respect

to Grant, I think someone has misinformed him of about carbides forming on the

edge and causing dull knives. Carbides

can't form on any edge, stainless or carbon steel. Elements like Chromium, Vanadium, Molybdenum,

Titanium, Niobium and Tungsten all form

carbides, i.e. a combination with

carbon atoms. These are very hard

micro-constituents and aid in abrasion resistance. A must in a good knife alloy. For all intents, carbides form in molten

steel, or shortly after solidification, but not at room temperature. But Grant is right on the money in his

explanation of micro scratches on the blade surface.

Sharpening:

Whatever it is

called, sharpening, grinding, honing, etc., it is all "controlled

scratching". In order to study the

microstructure of any metal, it must first be polished to a mirror finish and

then etched in acid to reveal certain characteristics. The act of polishing the metal surface is

exactly the same a sharpening a culinary or any knife. The procedure is no different. One starts out with a coarse grit and commits

the whole surface to the micro-scratches of that particular grit size. Then proceedes to a finer grit and commits

the whole surface again to the micro-scratches of that particular grit

size. And so on, and so on. In the metallurgical lab, we start with a 400

Grit and work up to micron size and eventually diamond dust. The key is patience. We always use a liquid carrier, water, in

most cases, but oil can be used. This

helps keep the heat down during the polishing.

The mere act of metal removal results in a tremendous amount of heat

generation and can damage edge hardness.

Knife angles and one

side sharpening are quite interesting and perhaps after I do some research, I

will produce another post. I would also

like to comment on the subject of dullness.

In my career I have had the opportunity to work intensely with shredder

knives. I'm talking about big time

problems in tire, bones, and carpet shredding.

I would like to share these experiences with this community, as another

facet of knife technology.

Bob Miller

Patrick_Ancillotti_6135

@susan fox: No problem! if at first you don't succeed, try again

susan_fox_33805

@Patrick Ancillotti Thanks so much! I'll head out to the local version of Goodwill this weekend. I also need to get coarser grit... overall, this is a huge learning curve for the neophyte, but admittedly a fun one.

Patrick_Ancillotti_6135

@Susan Fox: I agreed, and was way too scared to touch my shun's with the stones I bought... however, then I got brave, and ended up taking a handful of cheap knives (check your local goodwill, Grant does this in the video, or even your local asian market which usually has reasonably cheap knives up for grabs) and grinding them until I was happy with the way I was doing it. Try it, you won't be sorry! While the metal will certainly behave differently, it'll help you get your angle right, hand positioning, and your motion going!

susan_fox_33805

It still seems to me, or maybe I'm just too timid, that learning proper knife sharpening needs to be a face-to-face tutorial and not something easily gleaned from videos.

seijoed

@Grant - My wife dedicated it to a former boss

It was trashed very quickly.

@Brendan the Vector piece is even worse

- a scam, a scam I tell you!

Chris_Young_80640

LOL

Brendan_Lee_56950

I remember a good chunk of my high school friends selling cutco knives in the summers because their parents forced them to get jobs. I'm certain there is a specific place in hell for those things.

grant

To fix that Cutco knife, I would trash it. OR, sometimes it is fun to take cheap or broken knives and grind them into completely different style knives. But even to fix that chip, grind it first otherwise you will spend all day on the stone and will most likely not have much stone left as well.

Grant

Patrick_Ancillotti_6135

Update: So I took some of the cheaper knives we having lying around the house and went to town on them. Managed clean up a bunch of nicks, and got the mirror edge on it. I think my angle needs a little attention, but with practice that'll probably work out... there were a few areas that seemed to get a little more worked than other areas, but more on one side than the others. I'm guessing it's a practice thing, and thankfully I have another 10+ cheap ones to give it a whirl.

seijoed

@neogenix - Never use them, wife used to work there.