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SOUS VIDE HAACP

David_Quintana_63467

I am working with a facility that has transformed their food service... a 3 year transformation from boxed and frozen food to literally farm fresh, and a la carte cooking and more. We have won numerous awards within our food service realm . People in this feild want to know HOW we are doing what we are doing. We are getting more people with restaurant backgrounds and more experience to keep the momentum going and with my background I have a lot to bring to the table..I would like to introduce Sous Vide in this environment. Not because its cool, because it makes sense for consistency, labor, control, etc.. What do i need to provide for HAACP to the health dept to make this happen. I'm not sure if there was somethin posted like this in Chefsteps or not... anywho was wondering if anyone could help..
thanks

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tuckatodd

@David - there are many new options out there for your application. I am not an expert on this and I'm pretty sure someone will chime in soon on your problem at hand. There are many posts about this issue and chamber sealers.

Tim_Sutherland_52834

From my limited experience each county/city health departments can have widely differing requirements. I would contact your local health department and ask them. Sous vide is still a mystery to many health departments and some have gone overboard in what they ask for. Some health departments are not known for applying logical and practical requirements on the food service industries in their jurisdiction.

Chris_Young_80640

@David_Quintana — The first thing to find out is whether your local health department already has a policy in place for sous vide cooking. If so, the path of least resistance is to follow their protocol.

But if they don't, or if their's is too restrictive, you can apply to follow the FDA food code's guidelines for reduced atmosphere cooking (sous vide). This will require the creation and submission of a HAACP plan. A HAACP plan is not really all that difficult, but it is time consuming and mind-numbing boring to produce. It's all about documenting your process, identifying the critical steps for safety, explaining how you ensure that what you do is safe, how you'll document that you actually followed the plan, and what you'll do if something goes wrong (usually, destroy the food if it wasn't cooked according to plan). There are several online courses and numerous consultants that can help with implementing a HAACP plan in a commercial environment.

avisharb

Our health inspector told us no at the beginning, especially since no one around here was doing it, or doing it legally for that matter. After a bit of prodding she finally allowed us to do it under the conditions of the HACCP plans. The key for us was persistence and explaining to our inspector that we realized that she was there to help, not hurt us! In addition, since she was unfamiliar with the process outside that of merely the ROP realm and health department view, we let her borrow Under Pressure, and the first two books of Modernist Cuisine to show her that we were taking it very seriously and not going to use a food saver and my home made circulator and SVS (whether we started this way or not is not to be discussed :x). Our specific code stated that we have to have an individual HACCP plan for each menu item that we do sous vide, but they all follow the same format under two categories; cook/serve, and cook/chill/retherm. In addition I had to write a training protocol log, create SSOP and SOPs, create a flow chart of processes, and keep up with datalogs for temperatures of coolers and water baths. I wrote the first HACCP, which we went back and forth on a few times to get worked out to conform to local laws, then to take the safe side of things I basically used my original HACCP as a template for any and every possibility that might be cook sous vide. Using an overwhelm-with-too-much-information seems to work, and somehow we actually ended up doing a demo and talking to the Health Department about sous vide. We also got a CVAP for fish and shellfish as so far ROP of seafood is a big no-no in our area!

It was kind of a process to get it all going, but it is not particularly difficult, just time consuming and busywork; plus once you do it once you can easily reapply it. If you need help getting started, need any info, or have any questions related to the procedure I would be glad to assist however I can!

David_Quintana_63467

Guys Thanks for the info...I have had a lot going on @avishar where abouts are you located in the US??
I will definately take you up on that. Do you have a direct email/messenger?

Thanks again..

love chefsteps

Mark_Kalynchuk_34927

I don't honestly know how they do these types of things in the States but I find myself dealing the health departments stringent rules on the "Danger Zone" without knowledge of how sous vide cooking works and how pasteurization plays into it. All they tend to see is "In the Danger Zone for 14+ hours?? Cut that out!" without realizing that the pasteurization process takes a relatively minimal amount of time in comparison to the time required to tenderize certain cuts of meat. Vegetables can be different and I avoid sous viding fish out of dislike of the texture but the principle is the same. fish brought to 120 degrees in a sous vide will stay there without breaking down or overcooking for as long as it's at that temperature.

avisharb

I as well, restaurant life and free time do not go hand in hand! Shoot me a private message sort of thing and I'll give you my email. I'm located in the outskirts of Central Ohio.

seijoed

Outskirts of central... Is that like being almost pregnant?

(Sorry, had to ask).

com-chefsteps

Does anyone have examples of communities that have SV policies in place for health inspections? I figure that model policy is the best place to start for implementing SV in my city.

Lou_34544

I am also very interested in this. Are there any examples or templates available online one can follow? Or frameworks? An online course describing elements one should include the plan would be awesome (even if I have to pay for it.)

Don't even know where to begin.

Chris_Young_80640

This is a big topic, and something I've put off for a while. Yes, there are food codes you could look at, but they vary greatly in quality. The 2013 FDA Food Code directly addresses this, and there are online HAACP programs, but they aren't really geared towards small-scale restaurant work. I'll toss this out as an idea, would people be interested in being able to download sample HAACP forms for some of our recipes? Would they be willing to pay a modest fee to do so? What if they came with the caveat (as they would have to) that these are for guidance in working with your local health regulatory authority and in no way represent specific safety advice?

jim_53915

Yes

tuckatodd

I'll second that

dblnickels_67011

I'm in. I will be going through this

in the coming year.

Lou_34544

Yes.

Tim_Sutherland_52834

@Chris I would be interested in the HACCP forms and I would be willing to pay a reasonable fee for it.

This does though open the big door on food safety and what is advice and what is guidance.

com-chefsteps

I'd be interested in HAACP forms for immersion circulators, but not for specific recipes.

Chris_Young_80640

@Ted HACCP plans are always specific to a product (recipe). You can see generalities between HAACP plans for similar products, say, sous vide cooked steak versus a sous vide cooked chicken, but you can't write a plan for a particular tool.

com-chefsteps

Wow. So a new HAACP plan for every new dish - meaning no SV specials. That puts a pretty big dent in my plans for lobbying my city government to create a citywide general SV plan. Thanks.

Chris_Young_80640

@Ted — Ah, this is the catch. HACCP plans for each individual item allow you to produce food under Federal rules, or have an exception to local regulations that are restrictive (Federal law always trumps local laws).

But, HAACP plans for every item can indeed be a burden, especially for restaurants that frequently change the menu. If, however, a local health department creates general guidelines for sous vide cooking, then as long as you adhere to their rules, you don't need a HACCP for each sous vide item. New York City, for example, created rules for sous vide. They're not great rules, but if you follow them my understanding is that you don't need to create custom HACCP plans. So it is worth lobbying your health department to create good, sensible rules. You can point them to the brand new 2013 US Food Code that specifically addresses reduced atmosphere packaging and cooking (sous vide).

The chapters to be familar with are Chapter 3—where the real temperature/time requirements are listed. And then Annex 6 (Food Processing Criteria) that summarizes the requirements for sous vide. Keep in mind that Annex 6 will list very high temperatures, but if you then look at Chapter 3, you'll see that you can find an equivalent level of safety with a lower temperature and longer time.

Tim_Sutherland_52834

I can only find the 2009 FDA Food Code on the FDA website. Is there another location the 2013 code would be available?

Chris_Young_80640

I take it back, yes, the 2013 code is supposed to be out (but its not yet) and I'm reference the 2009 (still current) code. Very odd, somehow I thought I had seen the 2013 food code last week.

com-chefsteps

Got it, and it makes more sense: the health code pre-authorizes techniques under wide use, like holding chopped onions or searing steak, but requires a serious walk-through for anything out of the ordinary.

Let's all look out for the 2013 code and someone can link it here.

prince_of_porcelain

Maybe this is of interest to some of you. I'm not connected in any way, other than I enjoy their salami. Plus, they have the best corporate slogan I've seen in quite some time: 'Buy Curious'. Which probably should make me rethink posting that comment about enjoying their salami.

Anyway, Underground Meats is kickstarting an open source dry cured meat processing HACCP plan. I know nothing about HACCP plans, but more dry cured meats sounds like a good thing to me.

Why can't I ever figure out how to post video clips? You'll have to just follow the link.

jonny.d.hunter

Ha, that is me. I was just thinking about posting something about this on the site? Can i start a new discussion on this or is it too much self promotion.

seijoed

Go for it.

prince_of_porcelain

@Jonathan - I'd love to get some details on your Nduja. It's delicious and not something I was familiar with before I picked some up from Underground.

com-chefsteps

@Jonathan, I was wondering if the $500 "you get HAACP consulting!" funding level means "consulting on _salami_ related HAACP, or if we can consult on other HAACP-related matters (specifically, developing a strong case with model legislation for my local town to allow sous-vide packaging.

Leah_17738

@David - Check out fusionchef's Diamond circulators. They are compatible with their own HACCP data logging software which records time/temps. http://fusionchefpro.com/shop/diamond/diamond.html

David_Quintana_63467

We are going with Fusionchefs for that reason