Go to the Recipe: Life-Changing Pizza Dough With Joe Heffernan of Seattle’s Independent Pizzeria
Possible to do the dough hook step without a stand mixer?
What changes should I make if doing this at high altitude?
Where would one find cake yeast in the Seattle area? Would it be possible to use slightly higher temperature water and substitute dry yeast instead?
Let's say that you live in Brazil, where average temp at summer is 28 degrees celsius at home... Any ideas on how to keep the dough at 18 degrees for fermentation?
I'm assuming that Independent has a wood-fired oven (900 to 1000 F), is this recipe modified for the typical household oven (550 F)? Ken Forkish makes the point in his excellent book that a dough recipe for a wood-fired oven needs its hydration modified for a home oven. I'm guessing it has been modified as the AVPN pizza rules allow hydration percentages between 55 and 59 percent and this dough has 65% hydration.
Or is there an online source?
Salt: table or kosher?
Hi Andrew and Bill—You can use 1 g of dry yeast instead.
I talked with the Colorado University County Extension office...I live at over 5,000 feet. I was told to reduce the yeast by 1/4 to 1/2 tsp for every 2.5 tsp called for, and add 1-2 TBS water. Low atmospheric pressure and a boiling point of water here at 202 changes proof time and everything dries out fast, and expands fast. Dough should always be proofed to only double, else the dough will collapse into a heavy, dense loaf. Longer mixing is recommended to allow gluten to develop sufficiently. I copied this from their High Altitude brochure. Every county has an extension agent who can advise you.
What poetry! I love the slow time that is taken to get the perfect dough. I will try this...thank you.
Yeah! Should i run to the store, for pizza oven or to the forest for wood logs?
You'll just have to knead by hand for at least that long to develop the gluten.
I think that was the most sensual cooking lesson I've ever seen.
I've got a gas fired oizza oven and have tried many doughs. Still experimenting to find just the right one for my oven. I'll start this tonight so I can follow along with the rest. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Guilherme i make beer in Brasil at home using a freestanding wine cooler set at 18C to ferment it and it does the job. I am considering trying to use it to ferment the dough as well.
If you want to increase the amount of dough, does this recipe double etc
Or should you make different individual batches
Thanks in advance
Michael Goldman
I've been making pizza using the "Artisan bread in five minutes" approach with the four ingredients of flour, salt, yeast, and water, letting it ferment at room temperature overnight and then popping it in the fridge for up to a week till I'm ready, then letting the boules proof for an hour or so at room temp (again) until ready to stretch.
So, Joe's recipe looks superb. Really looking forward to the next posts, because what is better than pizza?
Oi Guilherme, também sou brasileiro, mas vou postar em inglês o resto para o pessoal entender ok? I had no problem with more than 30 celsius. I leave in São Paulo,so the weather here varies from 10 to 40 celsius. To me is all about how soft the dough is. If you feel it like the video above, it will work. Dry yeast like a bit warm, no problem, I even add a little suggar, about the same amount of salt, it helps the yeast to ferment and let it sit for 14 hours, usually I make the dough at night, like 8pm, so is a little cooler, and let it there overnight, after that it is ready to shape it and go to the next step :-)
If you have an electric hand mixer, such as this model, they have dough hooks. You need to use both of them, but they work well enough.
Hi Ed! Thanks for your question -- this dough works great for a home oven, and on Wednesday we'll share some of Joe's tips for getting great results at home, without the big wood-fired oven. Stay tuned!
always kosher
I'm surprised to see bread flour instead of "00" flour, since so many chefs (and Italians) swear it's necessary for the best pizza dough -- especially since that's a *higher*-protein flour and "00" is a lower-protein flour. I've always felt like it made sense to have more gluten rather than less for pizza dough. I guess someone agrees! No oil in the dough is intriguing, though. I thought that was what made pizza dough different from white bread recipes.
I do wonder, since there's a 5+ hour ferment and an overnight fridge rest, is the kneading step even necessary? In that time frame, shouldn't autolysis give us all the gluten formation we need? That's the idea behind no-knead bread, which is made very similarly, minus the kneading (obviously). Do we need the oxidation that kneading brings, or does autolysis just not produce enough -- or the right kind of -- gluten?
Another option might be a (large-ish) food processor. Kenji over at Serious Eats uses one a lot for glutinous doughs, so I bet it would work. It might not be exactly the same, but given the amount of rest this dough gets, it should be close.
If you're like me and wanted to play that background track over and over again, it's called Malamu by Stratus.
https://play.spotify.com/track/7ehlSFXPTSO9EVzfWqQyym
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvvynWF4Ty8
https://soundcloud.com/stratusmusic/malamu
My understanding is that kneading it initially and then shaping before fermenting will give you the gluten structure you need to make the proof count. If you just mixed the ingredients and went into bulk fermentation, you wouldn't trap the gas because you'd just have a shaggy mass going in. However I think that if you mixed everything together, autolysed, then shaped before proofing you would be fine.
If one were to perhaps have their own wood-fired oven, would this dough work well? (I don't have a wood-fired oven, but I do have a Pizza Kettle, and that sucker cranks to well over 800°F)
I see it all the time at QFC, it's refrigerated.
Can I use SAF Instant yeast?
I'm sorry, but the fermentation temperature of 65°F/18°C looks too cool to me. Am I wrong? I know this is from a professional dough maker. But this is what I know:
Now I know we are talking about the fermentation process temperature, not the "Proofing" stage, where in this recipe calls for a "Warm room" which I would call the 80°F - 90°F range. I'm perplexed that yeast would grow at 65°F for fermentation. What am I missing?
Also, for those that don't have a proofing box, I do this:
Place a heating pad (like for a sore back) on the counter set on low. Place a cookie sheet on top of it (make sure to keep the counter dry!), then place a tea or linen towel over that. Flour the towel, then place shaped loves or boules on it and flour them. Then cover the whole set up with another towel. this keeps the temp/humidity at a good spot for me in southern California's climate during the winter.
And about cake yeast- you can get it on line or in restaurant supply shops. But I'd skip it, as it can be unreliable. Varying amount of the yeast are alive and unless you make large batches every day and use up the whole box quickly, it will just give you troubles. Use the dry yeast.
Yes... All of the ingredients are calculated as a % of the weight of the flour.
Keep those percentages exactly the same and you can double, tripe or quadruple this recipe to any size you want.
Here's the bakers percentages of this recipe/formula. Keep those %'s exactly the same and you can scale this to any size you want.👍
Bread Flour 415g = 100%
Salt 9g = 2.168% of the weight of the flour
Cake yeast 1.5g = .00361% of the weight of the flour.
Water 270g = 65% of the weight of the flour
A cooler temp is going to be better for a long slow fermentation - and a 6-8 hr bulk fermentation is getting there. I give my doughs 12 hours and up to two days in the fridge where it is plenty below 68.
How can we achieve Step 5 without a stand mixer? For how long should we hand-knead the dough?
That was like watching Bob Ross paint.
I like SAF instant too, but for shorter fermentations. If I'm making pizza dough I have seen the instant yeasts ferment through the dough too quickly if you use the same amount as you would for active dry. I tend to use 75% as much to compensate.
Roughly 10 to 15 minutes
The extra hydration is how he gets his crust so thin.
You can't bake bread flour or all purpose flour at 900° or 1000° because it will brown very quickly and burn.
To bake pizza at 800° or higher you must use 00 flour. 00 flour can take that heat without burning.
No... Bread flour can't take 800° baking temps. It will burn quickly.
To bake pizza at 800° or over, as I do in my Big Green Egg, use Caputo 00 flour. That can take 800° without burning.
If you have a gas oven... Turn it on for 1 minute and then turn it off. Put your dough in the oven, close the door and let your dough ferment there.
If you have a microwave put a cup of hot water over in 1 corner, put your proofing container in your Microwave and close the door. You dough will ferment nicely.
What art! I do well until the stretch part and I usually put too many toppings on top. Question-Many of the recipes I have seen for restaurant quality pie dough calls for diastatic malt. Has anyone tried those type of recipes like in "The Pizza Bible"? https://www.amazon.com/Pizza-Bible-Neapolitan-Deep-Dish-Wood-Fired/dp/1607746050/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466471056&sr=1-3&keywords=pizza
Thoughts/experiences?
Thanks!
IMHO, the video at the top of this post is one of the most beautiful food videos ever made. It's right up there with Chef Step's chocolate molten cakes video, which deserves an Academy Award. Bravo.
There is a relationship between fermentation rate and temperature which is extensively documented. You can google search for the fermentation rate for various types of yeast (cake or fresh yeast, instant yeast, active dry yeast). At 65 the fermentation will be significantly slower than at 90F but this slower fermentation allows some significant benefits on the dough. However, 65F is by no means too cool for fermentation, especially for commercial yeast as is used in this recipe. If you're skeptical, just try it out! Also, if you'd like to see recipes and examples that use cooler and therefore longer fermentation schedules, check out the pizzamaking.com community.
I don't know if you have a Restaurant Depot in your area but I've found it at ours in New Orleans.
"INTRODUCING: OTHER PEOPLE’S IDEAS" Solid new feature at Chef Steps. Really looking forward to more and this dough and pizza looks sexy as all goodness. Thanks for keeping it fresh guys.
00 flour is specific to neapolitan pizza styles which aim for tenderness as opposed to crispiness. It's a difference in style and not necessarily better or worse. Oil in dough is not necessary but is often used as it conditions the gluten and keeps the pizza from drying out during very long bakes (8+ mins). Traditional NY pizzerias tend to do this because they bake for a long time and want tender pizza that's also crispy. With too much water in the dough, there will be tenderness but no crispiness. With too little, the crust will be come out like crackers. So it's a balancing act to optimize hydration and baking time/temperature and to know whether to add oil in the dough. We will have to see what baking technique Chefsteps provides in order to debate whether oil will help people using this recipe depending on their home setup.
As for kneading, the hydration% and fermentation schedule in this recipe doesn't allow for sufficient gluten development sans kneading. If you, like me, don't have a stand mixer, you have two options: 1) go grandma style and use elbow grease. 10-15 kneading should do the job if you have good technique or 2) wait for one hour after mixing to allow autolyse to do its magic and then do 4-5 stretch and folds every 20-30 minutes a la Tartine Bread.
Because this recipe calls for an overnight fermentation in the refrigerator, it basically reaps the benefits of adding diastatic malt without adding it.
When the dough hits the fridge, it signficantly retards yeast activity. What happens during this time is further break down of flour starches into sugar. This step can't happen if the yeast activity is too strong as all the sugars will become depleted by yeast consumption. It's what makes this pizza recipe so tasty: maximizing the available sugars in the dough through cold fermentation.
Generally, malt is added to quicken this process by aiding in the breakdown of flour starches into sugars. It makes sense for many commercial pizzerias who don't want to utilize multi-day fermentation. But since we're not constrained by time and profitability, we can do it the slow, natural way.
love the return to the simple, music-only video style! this was beautiful.
1.5 grams of yeast seems quite low (at least compared to dough I'm familiar with) just double checking that this is not a typo?
Seems ok to me, bearing in mind that the dough stay in the fridge for a rather long time. This compensates for the small amount of yeast.
No sous-vide? But ... I guess you at least used the Joule to get the water to 65°F/18°C right?
"Pants optional," has potential to be unsanitary and unsafe. Strictly for pros only.
.0036% yeast...is ok but 1/2 of usual bakers formula.
If you fermented at 80-90 degrees, how long do you think the yeast would contain itself from pushing that dough into a huge over-fermented mess? Slow and low temps work here for secondary fermentation.
There is a ratio of oil to temperature/bake time = tenderness. The effect of adding oil to your dough is "shortening" the strands of gluten. You decide on the results, you want a baguette (no oil, highest temperature) or a loaf of white bread (tight pillowy crumb with high oil, < 500 degrees)?
Anything burns at 800 degrees. The water is used for extensibility, yes, but it also creates steam and allows the yeast and dough to spring before the charring begins in a wood fired oven.
longer proofing times you can use less yeast, you will get better flavor dough with this approach. but it's not quick.
The final photo of the pizza slice 100% meets my definition of the perfect pizza slice....I have spent so many hours experimenting with all variety of pizza dough recipes, it was all in vain, should have just waited for this one...
Love it. And I'm so stoked to try this out.
Wow! Joe's astonishing breakthru method is to make it like everybody else has been doing for centuries. Give that man a cigar. LOL
What is the final weight of the dough? 24 or 25 oz?
I'll give it a try! I usually do a quick four hour dough process to get the pizzas going in the same day, but I like the low and slow idea! I'll just have to wait for cooler weather as it was 107°F at my house yesterday and I don't have air conditioning!
I'd be waiting quite a while for the tap water to cool down to 65 degrees...
I have all electrical appliances, so that makes it difficult. But I can't wait to try this method, even if I have to use ice to help ferment at the right temp!
While I have over fermented in the past, 90 minutes fermented, 30 -45 minutes proofed works well with the recipe I use. But I'm intrigued with this concept!
It's going to weigh a little more than 24.5 ounces.
People have been using a stand mixer for centuries? Where have i been?
I bought all of the ingredients and should be able to start this tomorrow. This looks amazing and the video is superb. Thank you!
I'll agree that there's no 'amazing secret ingredient' or 'groundbreaking technique' but, even just with four ingredients, a huge number of variations when it comes to ratios, temperatures, proving periods etc. means there's still a LOT to f*** up - or at least a lot that can drastically alter the final dough. Yeah it's the 'same recipe' as countless others but there's some pretty crucial specifics Joe takes care to inform us about.
Not to mention....where am I going to find a room that is 65 degrees while it's fermenting????
This is fantastic information--should be in the main-body of the article, not hiding way down here! I'm also curious about the "uncovered for 10-30 minutes" then "cover overnight". Whats going on with that? Is it uncovered initially just to help get the temp down, or is there something going on with oxygen (or lack thereof)?
... briefly:00 refers to how finely/coarsely the flour was milled, not to the protein content, i.e. you can have high protein 00 flour and low protein one. Pizzaioli would generally use a high protein 00 flour as a rule of thumb - if u see the message twice my apologies: I left a more detailed message yesterday but it looks as if it went lost. stefano
Thank you Carolyn! I appreciate it. I'm lower than you in Calgary but will keep your suggestions in mind.
Hi Debra, I have the Pizza Bible and it is an excellent book. The recipes I have tried are all really good. Tony G. is a true professional and has really put together an encyclopedia for making just about every style you can think of. Diastatic malt does add a certain something extra to NY style pizza but if you don't have it don't worry, the pizzas still come out great without it. You can add a bit of brown rice syrup or even sugar as a semi-substitute. You can find diastatic malt easily online and in some specialty stores (like Surfas in Los Angeles if you are near there).
You can use a food processor if you have one. Probably about 35 to 40 seconds in short spurts. Careful not to overdo with the food processor. Just process until the dough doesn't stick to the sides of the bowl, and not more than a minute.
This recipe was obviously developed in Seattle. Where else is it 65 in summer! My kitchen is 80 with the AC on.
I dont have a food processor, so I'll have to pump muscles for 10-15 minutes.... good workout I guess!
You mean 0.36% yeast
