Go to the Recipe: Hi-Tech Mushroom Burger
Can we get a recipe for the bread?
The bread in the pictures are just standard store bought buns. We have our own bun recipe coming very soon!
Is there a vegan alternative to the sodium caseinate? Some other protein maybe?
Activa reacts very well with soy protein, although keep in mind that Activa RM contains sodium caseinate also. For a vegan activa, sub Activa TI. You may need to up the amount of soy protein in the recipe.
We chose sodium caseinate because it gave us a better springy/snappiness.
Can you sub Activa TI 1:1 for RM?
These look beautiful.
I'll probably try both ways to compare the results. I'd just feel like a dick telling my vegan friends I made mushroom burgers but they couldn't have any.
To my understanding the enzyme level in TI is higher than RM, however there is no sodium caseinate in TI so you might need to add more sodium caseinate to the recipe. You would also be able to use less activa. I would suggest 1% as a starting point.
Any way to do this that does not involve a water bath? Kind of a ridiculous requirement for the average person.
Is it necessary to chill this after it's cooked sous vide? Mine was a lump of mush when I pulled out out of the water bath!
Is the MSG really necessary? I have read really bad things about it!
Made this recipe this morning. It is cold-setting now. I roasted the mushrooms (standard issue grocery store button mushrooms) for a little more than 15 minutes. As predicted, after roasting they weighed about 1000g. But they were dripping wet. I wrapped them in a towel and without even squeezing liquid came pouring out. Once I got them to the sink I gave them a bit of a squeeze but nothing really aggressive. I weighed them again after that and I was down to 780g.
Is it common for mushrooms to vary this much in moisture content. In the end I cut the amount of activa and sodium caseinate back to 40g each to better match the amount of mushrooms I had. Hopefully that was the right choice. I'll find out tomorrow.
it all depends on the humidity
Hi -- I usually mix this recipe 50/50 with the black bean recipe with excellent results using Activa RM. I sometimes cook for vegans, however, so I thought I'd experiment with TI (moo gloo brand) + isolated soy protein (bob's red mill brand, says at least 75% protein content). The relevant amounts were 800g beans + 1000g mushrooms (about 600-700g mushroom yield after roasting and getting rid of some excess moisture, 22g activa TI (so around 1.2%) 112g soy protein, 233g water, 100g oil.
The texture and moisture content of the mixture seemed fine, although I did notice when cleaning up that the material washed away much more easily than when I used RM, leading me to think that it might not be setting up correctly. 22 hours cold set + bath at 149F for about 1.5 hours (I was busy and let it sit a little longer assuming that wouldn't hurt) the log completely fell apart once I tried slicing it and was unusable (although tasty) mush. With a lot of patience I was nearly able to salvage one patty, but there was maybe 20% the cohesion I am used to with this recipe using RM.
I realize this is bit like "hi I tried your recipe but modified these 9 things why didn't it work", but I just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas what to try next. Both the TI and soy protein were brand new. I'm just realizing now that I forgot to add any extra maltodextrin moving from RM to TI. Could that be a problem?
Tried this again and upped the soy protein to 180g (rest of the measurements the same) -- so a much larger amount of protein. Clean up took more time (which I take as a good sign -- the transglutanimase is working and cementing things), but still not nearly what it is with RM. The log held together much better (again, not as well as when I use RM + extra sodium caseinate) and I was able to cut them into patties and use them. They were on the dry side however (I assume from all the extra protein powder with nothing to balance it out) and so not quite as good. Nothing a lot of extra cheese can't fix though.
Hi David. Nice post. The vegan factor really seems to be the biggest stumbling block of this entire method. I too was considering giving the TI and soy protein mix a shot, but it seems to me that if 180g of soy protein is needed, only then to produce a patty that, as you say, is on the dry side, then it's not really worth it.
I can't really get my head around the science, but gelatin works with TG, so I'm wondering whether maybe agar might be worth toying with here? Perhaps a starch or a gum could work? It'd be great to hear about anyone else's attempts at this.
I am so excited to try this. I just joined today and i am so glad! More power and looking forward to learning. Thank you!
. What's the role of the sodium caseinate in this recipe? Does it strengthen the glue effect? I didn't see it been used in other recipes combined with Activa.
gelatin is a protein, agar is not, so it wont work.
have you tried this method? it should work. where do u think is a good source for soy protein?
I'm thinking about making this into sausage links, not burger patties. Will I over-cook if I don't adjust the time for a cylinder with a much smaller diameter?
sodium caseinate is a dairy by product that allows the activa to bind. Activa won't bind to vegetable proteins alone.
I want to make these vegan, will transglutaminase TI work without using Sodium Caseinate? I am assuming the Sodium Caseinate provides the protien that the TI binds?
I guess I should read all the other posts first!!!
I don't think it will work to make it strictly vegan. Transglutaminase needs animal protein to work, it won't bind vegetable proteins.
Yeah, I tried a mixture of TVP, hemp protein and Tranglutaminase TI. I just took it out of the circulator and it seems a little loose.
To answer my own question, it seemed to work fine.
MSG is fine unless you're allergic to it. And if you are the symptoms are mild. Here's a few links you may want to check http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/monosodium-glutamate/faq-20058196 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/its-the-umami-stupid-why-the-truth-about-msg-is-so-easy-to-swallow-180947626/?no-ist
They worked!!! Vegan Mushroom patties. Textured vegetable protein, hemp protein and TI. I wouldn't call the texture "snappy" but very firm and stable.
Just great. Try to tell about it to my friends
Can you combine the Bean and Mushroom recipes? My guess it that it will give it more complexity and should taste better. Any thoughts?
Just made them today; 75% button mushrooms, 25% shitake...I also added smoked Maldon and smoke Spanish paprika for added flavor. 9/10. I have to say that this surprisingly simple recipe has exceeded my expectations. Good work.
I made those and they were wonderful. Super savory.
The misunderstanding of MSG, it is just a concentrate of seaweed / kombu that you mention. It should be used in small amounts, just like salt. To say it is a drug, well food is a drug and if MSG used correctly it is probably safer than most over the counter pharmaceuticals that people take for the common cold.
Just a side-note, I would probably use a bit of trassi, bagoong or fish sauce and not MSG.
Science says … I know these are Wikipedia quotes but … food is also chemistry …
Monosodium glutamate (MSG, also known as sodium glutamate) is the sodium salt of glutamic acid, one of the most abundant naturally-occurring non-essential amino acids.[Manuf. 1] MSG is found in tomatoes, Parmesan cheese, potatoes, mushrooms, and other vegetables and fruits.[1]
MSG is used in the food industry as a flavor enhancer with an umami taste that intensifies the meaty, savory flavor of food, as naturally occurring glutamate does in foods such as stews and meat soups.[2]This was first prepared by Japanese biochemist Kikunae Ikeda, who was seeking to isolate and duplicate the savory taste of kombu, an edible seaweed used as a base for many Japanese soups. MSG as a flavor enhancer balances, blends and rounds the perception of other tastes.[3][4] It is particularly popular in Korean, Japanese and Chinese cuisine.
Glutamic acid (abbreviated as Glu or E) is one of the 20-23 proteinogenic amino acids, and its codons are GAA and GAG. It is a non-essential amino acid. The carboxylate anions and salts of glutamic acid are known as glutamates. In neuroscience, glutamate is an important neurotransmitter that plays the principal role in neural activation.[4]
Although they occur naturally in many foods, the flavor contributions made by glutamic acid and other amino acids were only scientifically identified early in the twentieth century. The substance was discovered and identified in the year 1866, by the German chemist Karl Heinrich Ritthausen who treated wheat gluten (for which it was named) with sulfuric acid.[5] In 1908 Japanese researcher Kikunae Ikeda of the Tokyo Imperial University identified brown crystals left behind after the evaporation of a large amount of kombu broth as glutamic acid. These crystals, when tasted, reproduced the ineffable but undeniable flavor he detected in many foods, most especially in seaweed. Professor Ikeda termed this flavor umami. He then patented a method of mass-producing a crystalline salt of glutamic acid,monosodium glutamate.[6][7]
Those are gorgeous. What's atop?
I didn't prepare well enough: this recipe takes a whole (home-sized) pouch of sodium caseinate, and a whole pouch of TG! I got most of the way through preparing the mushroom mix and realized I didn't have nearly enough TG. I wound up using 14g, and the whole 50g of sodium caseinate, with 850g mushrooms and 150g black beans (I let my mushrooms go longer in the oven, and they dried out further). SV, chill, grill as directed. They came out pretty good anyways, not too mushy and pretty good flavor. I'd compare the texture to a really rare hamburger.
I think I'll come back to these later with the right ingredients ready and see if they're even better.
A practical question:
Holes must be punched in the tight wrap to get the air out, Ok
I think they wrap another layer of plastic before bath.
Where can i find Sodium Caseinate ?
Can i use Micellar Casein Protein instead Sodium Caseinate ?
Hello, so, if i want to make this Hi-Tech burger or the black beans one, what can i use as a substitute for sodium caseinate and activa?
Can I substitute mushrooms with quinoa?
So I've read all the posts and still have a question: as a vegan I cannot use the sodium caseinate. And apparently using just the TI alone will not create a "springy/snappiness" as described. Is there an answer to the question of finding an alternative vegan binder?
Kat the sodium caseinate is high and in protein, protein is used in this recipe to bind the Activa to the mushrooms. Activa only binds proteins and the mushrooms don't have enough themselves. With that said, you might try another vegan based protein like ground TVP in a fine powder, or another vegetable based proteins you could make into a powder.
2 or 3 more actually.
Just wanted to make a comment on yield. I cooked down my mushrooms significantly (roasted in slices, then chopped and put in a pan to get out even more). I started with three pounds (1362 g) and ended up with 485 g. Made the bean burger at the same time and I got about three times as many patties. For the cost of mushrooms I wouldn't do this again - worked out to maybe $3/patty. Perhaps a different mushroom variety with less water would have produced a more economical yield.
Yes but they specifically mention using TI instead of RM to "make it vegan" even though the caseinate means it's still not vegan!
Here's Kenji's take on MSG:
https://www.seriouseats.com/2019/01/ask-the-food-lab-the-truth-about-msg.html
I am just a regular home cook. I haven’t made these yet but being from Louisiana seems like some additional seasoning would be needed.
Transglutaminase really scares me. (It's the Activa) As I understand it, it is an enzyme that works most efficiently to bind proteins together at warm temperatures, eg around 35-37C, in moist conditions at neutral pH. It works extremely well at binding the whey protein into a gel. My concern is, what does it do to the lungs of the person working with it? There's no mention of face masks in your instructions, no warniings about sniffing it (and chefs love to smell what theya re working with). Are chefs working with it heading for pneumoconiosis?
A couple of comments to the article, and some replies: For one thing, there is a conflict if you suggest using a particular variety of Activa TGA because it does not contain milk proteins...but then you suggest using sodium caseinate...because it is made from milk.A pure vegan will want to use some other protein powder that contains a protein that TGA binds. As for TGA's dangers...for the most part, it is not dangerous, especially after it does it "glue job", because the result is the same substance that is contained in your body. On the other hand, you shouldn't inhale it. That is a "no-no". A mask is suggested, not that it is particularly dusty. Also, it must be kept dry or it will be ruined. Usually, those who buy large quantities will quickly remove the quantity they need, then vacuum-seal the rest and store in the freezer. BTW, this is pretty slow-acting glue. You do not need to worry about gluing fingers together like with super-glue.
There have been some doozies out that, and Linda, i think yours takes the cake. Tell me Linda, do you smell every single ingredient you've ever used? Flour, salt, sugar, MSG? If you do, to what end? If there is any type of contamination, you won't smell it. So is it just the TGA that freaks you out? Probably shouldn't open up the bag of powder and take a big snort of it. Chefs smell and taste what they're cooking, but i have yet to meet a chef that does lines of their various powdered ingredients.
@Olen Several years back, the chefs here recommended using soy protein if you're trying to keep it vegan.
Doing lines of random powders was always more of a front of house thing!
I don't have anything against msg, but I used some marmite, fwiw.
Sorry where do you get this crap from ?
