Go to the Recipe: Sous Vide Pastrami
Is there any reason why you don't cut the plate into single ribs at step 3? I think going from a plate-like to a tube-like geometry would help the brine take less time.
zé pinto ferreira: Yes, this would shorten the brining time. The primary reason that we don't do this is because we tend to make a very large batch and it's easier to just work with whole plates. The larger plates are also easier to slice into a large number of perfect looking portions later.
wouldn't brining in a vacuum bag also cut the brining time?
Why do you smoke the ribs before the sous vide step, would it be possible to smoke them after? Also Why is it important to chill the brine quickly after heating to dissolve the the salt and sugar. What is the purpose of the sugar in the brine?
- originally posted by oliver bell
I'm planning on doing this recipe/technique, but with beef tongue first (cheaper & easier to source than short rib plates). At what point in the process would you suggest I skin the tongue, if at all?
I would consider reversing the recipe steps a bit in this case. Brine the tongue, then sous vide cook it, peel the tongue (it's easier when hot), then smoke the tongue. Vacuum pack the smoked tongue if not using promptly.Chris
Oliver, these are several great questions that require a lengthier answer. Can I ask you to repost this question to the forum so that others can more easily get in on the discussion?Thanks,Chris
Weedy, it won't really cut the brining time. Once the food is sealed inside the vacuum bag and removed from the chamber sealer, it is under normal atmospheric pressure. So the brine goes at the same speed as if it were in a big container of brine. There are devices to speed brining that keep the meat and brine under a vacuum for the entire brine time.Chris
Thank you, that's very helpful!
Hi! Isn't needed to boiled the brine first? I saw a lot f the recipes for this out there instruct to boil the brine first...
- originally posted by Victor Wolansky
Victor: Many people boil the brine to ensure all of the salt and sugar have dissolved. But it's not strictly necessary to boil the brine to have this happen. You can tell when everything is dissolved because the brine goes clear and there are no solids on the bottom of the container.However, if you are reusing a brine, it's a good idea to boil it to help maintain the hygiene of the brine.Chris
Thanks!
Mmmmm..... Wait a second.... If you remove the pressure from the whole chamber to almost nothing, you get actually vacuum... Air and liquids probably will be pulled out the meat, but once you seal the bag, inside the bag, the atmospheric pressure gets sealed at the current state, which is vacuum right? Then when you release and return the chamber to regular pressure, which is several times mor than inside of the bag, then the outer atmosphere pushes the inner atmosphere which is lower, that is what actually makes the plastic to mold to the shape of the food, and is strong engh that could puncture the bag if there are bones.... And if the atmospheric pressure inside of the bag were the same as outside, then compressing fruits would not be possible right?Are you sure about this Chris?
Yes, Victor I'm sure about this. We're working on a lecture that explains this common misconception and hope to have it out soon. I'd be happy to discuss this in the forum too.
Hi, What are your thoughts on using brisket or flank steak for this?
I'm personally not a huge fan of brisket, but if you do use brisket, try to use the fatty (thicker) end of the cut. I've never tried flank steak, but I could imagine that it would be a unique texture. There's a nice discussion on preparing this recipe with brisket on our forum: http://forum.chefsteps.com/dis...
What's the point of the pink salt in this recipe? It's obviously not color because the amount of pink salt to water isn't enough to saturate the water to the stage of being pink. Even then, if the brine did change the color of the meat at all, it'd be lost in smoking it. It's also used in such a low amount to regular salt, so I can't see the taste different being discernible at all. I'm guessing it's for the "roundness" of the flavor, but I can't see you picking out the pink salt brine from a normal salt brine in a blind taste test, assuming both recipes were followed accurately (the only difference would be subbing normal salt for pink salt in one).
- originally posted by Conor
Conor. This is not correct. The color that you see in water from pink salt is not the active ingredient, that's a food coloring that's put into the mix for safety reasons (you wouldn't want to confuse pink salt with normal salt!). That coloring has nothing to do with how pink salt works to preserve the color of meat and enhance the flavor.Pink salt is a blend of normal salt and sodium nitrite. The amount we put is in gives the brine a concentration of sodium nitrite of a couple hundred parts per million. This is more than enough to slowly diffuse through the meat and react with myoglobin pigment in meat. This, in turn, stabilize the color of the meat and helps avoid rancidity. It is also is enough to enhance the meaty-taste.You can leave out the pink salt if you would like, but you will find that the color of your pastrami is not pink all the way to the center when you go to enjoy it. Smoke itself, of course, also infuses meat with carbon monoxide and nitric oxide, both are gases that interact with meat in a similar way to sodium nitrite, but the smoke cannot penetrate all of the way through the meat, hence the need to include a nitrite salt during the curing step.
I made this pastrami short rib and it came out fantastic and was a delight to prepare. I served it on a bed of savoy cabbage kraut vacuum pickled and baby peppers sweet pickled for an added condiment. This was accompanied with a Swiss and cheddar cheese sauce with a marinated plum tomato concasse and butter toasted pumpernickel. Essentially a Reuben on a plate, it was fun and delicious. Visually artisan with the appetizing colors and overall flavor. I smoked the meat with a combination of mesquit and hickory.
- originally posted by Walter Zuromski
Awesome Walter. Any chance you have a photo that you could post in our forum?
When you trim your short rib pastrami there are some thin end cuts and odd pieces available once you square off your portions. I took those left overs cuts and turned it into a killer red flannel hash. Great with a sous vide poached egg.
Awesome. If you have any photos we'd love to see them posted on the forum Walter.
You could also use an immersion blender to speed the dissolution (but before you add spices you want to keep whole!).
Yes, the high shear from a blender would certainly help dissolve the salt and sugars.
I spotted something toward the end of the video: The bath was amber colored. Was this because of a bag problem, or did that color migrate through the bag? I have low temp/sous vide cooked other smoked products in the past (smoked tri-tip, sausage, etc.), and I found that some smoky compounds DO get through the bag. In my experience it has mostly been aromas.If this wasn't a bag problem, do you think using a retort pouch would work better? It seems that it would, but I have yet to do the experiment.
Yes, some of the pigments in smoke are fat soluble and because plastics are fairly similar to fats, these pigments will migrate through the bags over a very long cooking time.
I've done brisket in the past, and you're right. A trimmed point cut (fattier part) comes out much better. I think flank steak would be too lean for this, as it would tend to be more like the flat cut of a brisket. That said, I do have an experiment I'd like to run: treating cured, and cold smoked, lean pastrami like a confit. I think that could be really excellent.In Northern California where I live, flat cut brisket, tri-tip, and flank steak is pretty common in supermarkets (I'm not a pro), so any option for these cuts seems like a good direction.
First let me state that I have no worries about food safety. Even without the cure, pasteurization is pasteurization. Rather, I'm more interested in preserving flavor and hindering the weird quasi-smoke smell in my kitchen when the food is in the bath for so long. Have you tried using retort pouches instead of regular bags for smoked items? My thinking is that retort pouches have an aluminum layer that prevents the migration of smokiness from the food into the water.
Sorry to be a pest, but it occurred to me that while it's possible we're talking about fat soluble components, I don't think that's the case. If these were purely fat soluble, the components would be on the surface of the water, not dissolved in the water. (Or equally likely, coating the bag.) It's possible that the long cooking time hydrolyzes the fats, but it doesn't seem like that's going on. Rather, I think this is more of a permeability issue related to the bag material. That's why I'm thinking of retort pouches.
Certainly not purely fat soluble, but if they were entirely water soluble I would be surprised that they would migrate through the bag even over two or three days of elevated temperature. The pigments are phenolics and bi-products of reactions related to the Maillard reaction, and in general these will partition into an organic phase more readily than in an aqueous phase, but you will get some solubility in both.There is certainly an interesting experiment to do here. Retort packages are certainly far less permeable, but they are also quite expensive and difficult to find (compared to more common sous vide packaging).
It's not so much about preserving flavor, aroma compounds from the smoke will continue to react during the Maillard reaction, so it's more about preventing changes. In my experience, cooking smoked foods sous vide for long periods of time tends to mellow the smokiness. If you want to avoid the smoke aromas, yes, you could use aluminized retort bags. But you might also consider doing the sous vide cooking first and the smoking second. This will also give you a more robust smoked aroma.
Greg, where do you recommend for BBQ in North Carolina? I may be through there in the next few weeks.
If I don't have a smoker, can this step be skipped or substituted in any way? Also, is there a stove-top way of replicating the time and temperature and humidity in this recipe? I really found the improvised sous vide methods a great way to experiment before making the commitment to the expense. A "improvised" smoker solution (if there is one) would be great as well.
Bryan: If you skip the smoking step you will have a great version of corned beef.
Nice! Good to know.
If one wanted to 1/2 this recipe and only do 1 rib plate. What would change? My novice understanding of the process seems like the brine could be cut in half because less liquid would be needed to brine less meat. The spices would be halved and keep the same strength brine. The spice rub could be halved because 1/2 the spices would be needed for 1/2 the meat and I would think smoking and cooking would be remain the same.
Yes, this is all correct. If you have any trouble, or if you get a great result, please let us know on the forum. We actively help troubleshooting recipes there.Also, very soon, we will be adding the feature that recipes can automatically be rescaled to suit your needs.
A rescale would be awesome. Would it take into account certain parts that couldn't be rescaled or would it just divide the whole recipe like a calculator?Thanks for the help. I am going to try this as soon as possible and I will be sure to take pics.
You guys cut out the best part of the video. What did you guys have served with that cut of meat?
We serve this with all kinds of things. I really like it with rye crisps and some onion choucroute. I'll be getting a recipe up for the choucroute next week if you want to check back.
Would be happy to try your choucroute recipe.
Would be happy to try out your choucroute recipe.
Can I substitute Tenderquick for the Instacure?
You can, although we don't recommend it. Morton's Tenderquick has a different ratio of nitrite to salt than InstaCure No. 1.InstaCure No. 1 is 6.25% sodium nitrite by weight and the rest is salt plus a food color that let's you know, at a glance, it's not plain salt. Tenderquick is only 0.5% nitrite and 0.5% nitrate.The problem is the nitrate; it is designed to slowly react with the meat over weeks and months—important for slow cured foods like a ham—which means there will be unreacted nitrates left in the meat, which can form unhealthy nitrosamines if you fry the meat.
I had no idea pink salt was a combination of salt and sodium nitrate. Very interesting, and thank you for the knowledge. This is why you guys are the best.
Hi Conor, you're welcome. But keep in mind pink salt is most often salt and sodium nitrite, not nitrate. Nitrate is only used in pink salts for meats and sausages that will be cured over a period of months. Nitrate is slowly converted to nitrite by bacteria, which is a way of providing a long-term supply of nitrite.
I am finishing the smoking step of this recipe for the second time. The first time I made 1 plate and it turned out great. Today I smoked 2 plates and my smoking temperature maxed out around 48 C (via temperature probe on the grill between the 2 plates). I have been smoking these for 7 hours and plan to take them off at 8. I have been using ice to keep the humidity up. Obviously I have not struggled with temperatures that are too high. My setup is a hotplate connected to a Auber PID (set to ~55 C but of course I haven't reached that temp) with a small smoker box on top in my Bar-B-Chef barbecue grill. I have noticed that this time the surface of the meat is still wet near the end of the smoking process.-What is the downside of smoking at such a low temperature? -Should the surface of the meat be wet or dry at the end of the smoking step? -Any other comments on my setup/approach?Thanks,Brian
Brian, since the meat is already cooked there is no real downside to the low-temperature smoking. The aroma profile will just be slightly different. You'll get more peaty/clove notes in lower-temperature smoke.The surface should be dry to the touch, but not bone-dry and cracked.I'm a bit surprised that you stuffled to reach the temperature. How many watts does your hotplate put out? I wonder if you're having an issue with the PID? How cold it the outside temperature when you smoked, if you're losing heat to the surrounding air at a fast enough rate, the hotplate just may not put out enough power to reach your target temperature.
Chris,Thanks for your quick response. I'm really enjoying the site (and really wishing I had an oven used in the roast chicken video!)You are probably correct that hotplate cannot put out enough power to reach the target temp. I think the combination of the weak hotplate (800 W), large area in the bbq grill, and the cool temp outside (around 5-6 C today) is what is preventing me from getting up to temperature. I checked the PID occasionally and never saw it turn the hotplate off. I think it would have been the same without the PID since last time I did this I removed the PID from the series and the temp was still low (but it was a bit colder outside as well).Is there a significant benefit to smoking at a higher temperature as it seems the closer the temperature get to the final sous vide temp the more risk of "over cooking" the meat during the smoking stage. It seems like smoking at a lower temperature is "safer" from that perspective. Your thoughts?To clarify your comment about the meat being already cooked - I am smoking the plates after the 7 day brine, before sous vide. Do you consider the long brine step "cooked?"Here are a couple of pictures before and after smoking for reference. The internal temp of the meat was ~ 35 C when finished.
Brian — Didn't realize that you were going to cook sous vide after the smoking step. So, no, I don't consider it cooked yet.And yes, cooking slightly below the sous vide cooking temperature is a reasonable strategy to avoid the risk of overcooking. Indeed, I like to have a temperature probe placed about 0.5 cm below the surface of the meat to measure the effective cooking temperature of the meat. Basically, that is the temperature I don't want to see hotter than my target sous vide cooking temperature.Photos are looking great. Would love to see you post them (and photos of your setup) on our forum.
Also to prevent possible botulism poisoning, needed every time you smoke.
Collin: A good point, but only relevant if you are smoking at temperatures where botulium spores can germinate and undergo anaerobic outgrowth, which will produce the botulinum toxin. Generally speaking, the spores will not germinate when the temperature is above 50 °C / 122 °F. But for cold smoking, for more than four hours or so (germination and growth take time), this is definitely a reason to include a so-called pink salt like Instacure No. 1
Also sometimes when the bag is sealed there can be some stuff in the flap between the seal and the end of the bag. That would most certainly affect the bath water.
The results were well worth the effort and 10 day wait. My wife now puts 2nd Avenue Deli below me on her pastrami list.
- originally posted by Funkspieler
Really great to read this. Next time you make it, we'd love to see some photos on our forum.
I have a question. I've just finished a 72 short rib run at 144F, and my end result has a funk (not horrible, but perceptible) and greyish film on most of it. It almost looks like slime, but not quite (and I'm unsure that I want to take a chance). I've thrown it out, but I want to understand what may have gone wrong. I did not brine nor smoke prior to cooking, only applying a rub (and adding some garlic powder). I noticed that after 48 hours some of the bags developed a slow leak (seems to always happen to me on cooks over 24 hours). I didn't rebag the meat. I have very little variation in temperature (0.1-0.2F). From your experience, is this off smell due to the slow air leak, or a contaminant on the meat? Should I always blanch in water or use a butane blowtorch to sear prior to vacuum sealing to sterilize the meat's exterior before applying the rub in this case?Any ideas? I've done pulled pork, ribs and many other meats without issues, however this off smell / tinge has occured in the past. Could garlic powder have created this smell, or is it really the slow leak? would I be better off rebagging every 24 hours, or double bagging? Links to pics below of bags/meat/setup...Equipment:Fresh Meals Solutions PID controllerFresh Meals Magic Immersion heater with bubbler20L polycarbonate bucket (insulated)Vacmaster VP112 vacuum sealerhttps://docs.google.com/file/d...https://docs.google.com/file/d...https://docs.google.com/file/d...https://docs.google.com/file/d...https://docs.google.com/file/d...https://docs.google.com/file/d...
Hi Nicholas — Sorry to read that you had a bad experience. There has been some discussion of this kind of problem before on our forum:http://forum.chefsteps.com/dis...If this doesn't help clarify the situation, please let us know on the forum.
MC calls for removing the product from the brine, boiling the brine and removing the scum. Chilling the brine, and then adding the smoked product with a portion of the brine, vacuum sealing and then SV for a length of time. Is this step necessary or has this step been eliminated as the recipe evolved?
Step is unnecessary, the recipe has evolved quite a bit since we first created and published it in MC.
What would be the best way to utilize The Smoking Gun for the smoking part of this process? Just made your your dinner rolls and they were fantastic. Love the site and your commitment to responding to all of us amateurs!
Smoking gun is really a convenient way to add a light-smoked flavor to a dish as part of a finishing step. Best results will be had when the surface is warm and tacky—not too wet, and not too dry. Glad that you're enjoying ChefSteps.
What wood would you reccomend to use for smoking? Apple? Hickory? Mesquite? Did you try different woods?
- originally posted by Mike B.
Each of these woods will give you a nice flavor, but they will be different. I love white oak and hickory, but apple, cherry, or mesquite have their devotees too. Of these, mesquite is the most distinct, perhaps a bit too distinct for my tastes.
Can’t achieve good quality smoke in my smoker under 225 degrees. Would it be acceptable to smoke at 225 to an internal temperature of 149and then sous vide cook as instructed?
Yes.
Went with a brisket. Turned out great. Is there a reason you used a plate instead of a brisket, other than the extra fat?
The flavor of the short ribs is by far the best for us. We serve it a bit different and let the meat speak for itself so we need a very succulent piece. Although brisket is great for sandwiches its just too dry to serve alone.
- originally posted by Grant Lee Crilly
I used brisket and it was fantastic. I would like to know how to modify this recipe for turkey breasts. Do I still use the insta cure for turkey? How long to smoke and sous vide?
I love (seriously love) pastrami and can't wait to try making it with short ribs! 48 hour short ribs are the best thing to come out of my sous vide so I have high hopes. However, let me hit you with a few questions:#1 - I bought the ribs at Costco, already off the bone - that's 7 ribs at about 3.25 pounds. If they go into the brine with all sides exposed will they get too salty? I could tie them together for the smoke and sous vide phases but don't think it possible during the brine. Should I shorten the period?#2 - As it's only 3ish pounds of meat should I cut the brine in half?#3 - Should I "reassemble" the ribs for the smoking and rubs so the are only exposed on 2 sides? (end pieces 3). I want to make sure we can taste the meat.#4 - In summer my Weber gas grill with wood chips runs at about 225 but as another poster suggested I'll just monitor the internal temp until it gets to 149. How critical is the humidity? Will a pan of water under the meat be enough?Thank you, thank you!
Thanks.I assumed that for the brine the pepper should be whole and ground - was this right?I had to cut the brine to 6 quarts since that was the largest pot I had that would fit in the fridge for a week. Since it's only going to be 4 days do you think it would be ok to put a 3-4 pound brisket in when I take the ribs out? I'd seal and freeze it for later sous-vide.
Ha! I read from the wrong ingredient list so my brine has items items that only belong in the rub. Oh well, a little garlic powder and juniper berries couldn't do too much damage. (plus extra whole coriander and black pepper)
Really looking forward to this! Have a 2400g plate brining in the refrigerator since Friday, in prep for the SuperBowl. I made 0.6x the brining solution (directly proportional to the amount of meat in the recipe). Happy to see that smoking at 225 shouldn't be a problem, since I use a regular grill for this. Thanks for all the info in the comments below, very helpful.
Costco has in our area, American style Kobe corned beef, from a company called Snake River. I have removed them from the package, and soaked them in fresh water overnight. I did a rub similar to yours, cold smoked them and then place them in sous vide. So delicious..and the Kobe beef was over the top tender. Love the sous vide cooking technique!
Smoked mine yesterday and just opened the lid of the Sous Vide machine to check on it after 24 hours and got a very,very strong smell of smoke!
Bloody fantastic! Many thanks ChefSteps.
have a problem with the amt of water do you mean 9 liters cannot convert kg to quarts or liters
how much water did you use in the brine following the recipe
Pastrami has traditionally been made with flanken as well as navel and brisket.
My recommendation would be cherry though as Chris states each type of wood will be a little bit different. It is really dealers choice. If you are the one taking the time to make a 200 pastrami pick what you tastes the best with beef and you will be happy.
